Damn dude...have you learned yet? HAVE YOU???

He's a great player no matter who his QB is your dumbass said he would struggle with Tua

Why? He was great here and was going to be great wherever he went. That's kind of what great players do.

Acting like trading Hill was the end of the Chiefs is just as stupid as acting like he isnt a good player anymore.

I will admit his stats are better than I thought but it wont last and he wont win anything because of Tua. He has 2 scores. Waddle will also want the bag and Tua hasn't been paid nor the TE. Somebody is gone probably 2 of them and then he will be crap.

Sometimes both teams win the trade.

Tua is in his 3rd year in the league so including the 5th year option, he's not getting "paid" until 2025 and that's if he keeps playing like he is. Waddle is in 2nd so he won't be "paid" until 2026.

I expected Hill to perform well in Miami. I mean, he’ll, he made Alex Smith look like a functional QB, to the point of again convincing many he was a legit QB you could win with.

He’ll get Tua a big deal. And Miami will never experience playoff success as a result. Hopefully they can keep ****ing with the Bills at least 1x a season, though.

Can we get a few of you Tyreek nuthuggers to at least acknowledge that the offense the Chiefs currently have is a bit refreshing?

There's no more pressure to get him the ball. Spreading shit around is pretty damn effective.

"IT'S NOT EXPWOSIVE ANYMOW!!!!"

More explosive doesn't mean it's better.

I wonder if Kelce would rather have his stats or Hills stats?

I bet he'd rather win another Super Bowl and knows he's on the team that gives him that opportunity.

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yes/no

With Tyreek and our new cast of WR's do you think we would be averaging MORE or LESS..

I was fine letting him go for the picks. But lets be honest our problem last two years is we had ONE wr and no one else worth a damn.

We're plenty explosive without him. More so, in fact, than last year because we're seeing different coverages.

I just want to go back to my pre-trade analysis, though. My answer to getting Hill more downfield opportunities was to run counter to conventional wisdom and double down on speed. I didn't want some possession WR to work underneath and try to draw safeties down because that just wasn't going to happen with Hill on the field. Teams were never going to elect to let Hill beat them over covering, say, a JJSS type.

I wanted, ironically enough, MVS. I wanted to add MORE speed to simply attack so much of the grass downfield that teams couldn't just go into a shell - there was too much green to cover with just two guys. So they'd have to pick their poison.

I feel like the Hill/Waddle combination demonstrates the effectiveness of that approach really well. Obviously MVS wouldn't be as good as Waddle, but the theory is being proven by the Dolphins. They're beating Cover 2 by attacking it rather than playing their slice and working underneath.

This idea that teams could just go into a shell and take Hill away never made sense to me. Cover 2 fell out of favor because it got picked apart. What Hill is doing in Miami he COULD be doing here had we added MORE speed rather than trade it away.

The offense is different the way it is, but I think it would've been better had we simply added more speed to surround Hill. They could've done that AND spread the ball around.

At a point you have to ask if the Chiefs didn't utilize Hill as effectively as they could have, be it due to personnel or scheme. There's no reason the guy should suddenly be an ass-kicker again when we couldn't find a way to free him up here.

To be fair, there were games when Tyreek was on the team and Mahomes was spreading it around like he is now and we were just as unstoppable.

Also, Mahomes still gets in the deep or nothing mode from time to time, like when we played the Bills and he was holding onto the ball for far too long looking for something down field.

No one can convince me that the team is better without Tyreek. Everything we see today was just as possible with Tyreek and with Tyreek we had all of these new guys talent wrapped up in 1 player.

However, the ultimate success of the offense comes down to the man throwing the ball, and if that man couldn't see the open receiver opposite of Tyreek because it became "**** it, Tyreek down there somewhere" then removing Tyreek from the roster makes the offense more functional as a whole.

And it's also worth calling back to the "Franchise QB Wars".

Those of us who were shrieking for a next level QB weren't doing so because of the possibility that he would be Patrick Mahomes. Even the bullish among us didn't expect THIS.

What we were calling for was a guy who over large numbers was a little better than your top-end game manager types, but who in critical situations in the playoffs could pull the game from the fire.

Over 17 games a merely good QB can win you a lot of games. Can win you 12-13 or more. But in the post-season when you REALLY needed something to turn, you need that fire-breather than could steal a game for you. You need that Mahomes vs. the Texans explosion.

Right now we still don't know how this approach will work in the post-season. Will the story ultimately be that we have the WR room equivalent of a good game manager QB? When what we need is someone that can go out there and run wasp?

The post-season always has a couple of instances where you flat out need an ass-kicker at some key positions. QB and DL seem like obvious ones and we're good there. And boy, it sure seemed like having one at WR was pretty important for us when we were at our best.

And now we don't. We'll see if that comes back to bite us.

But then you have to acknowledge that if we had kept Tyreek, we wouldn't have the new cast of WRs because we couldn't afford anyone else after paying Hill.

Exactly.

I will admit that thought has crossed my mind. But we do still have that butt kicker in Kelce. I think Mahomes will be enough with the guys we have but I guess we will see. I'm really more concerned about how the defense comes together. That and the running game.

This is why I think we need a dude at DE.

We have a dude at DT and he WAS a dude (qualing over his lack of post-season sacks be damned) in the SB when he was absolutely dominant.

And if I'm looking for a 'dude' I'd rather have him at WR than DE, especially given the way this team has been built.

Ultimately I think the organization has moved away from that thought process and that's why they moved Hill. They're not looking for a stars/scrubs model. They're leaning more towards the Ron Wolf (or even Bill Belichick) approach of having a small core and then strong roster depth elsewhere.

The issue I have with that, is that it's just so damn hard to continue to replenish that with FA/injuries/draft crapshoot etc.

At some point doesn't have 1 guy produce the equivalent of 2 make more sense?

You're putting Burns and/or Allen up there with the best pass rushers in the league, though. They aren't.

When one of those guys exists, I guess.

But I'd also argue that it's not THAT hard to find 'representative' players. Solid players who will give you league average performance.

I mean look at how many guys signed in the 2nd wave of FA who would've done that. There are a dozen or more of them, many of whom signed pretty cheap. Green and Hughes come immediately to mind - coulda had those 2 guys for a hell of a lot less than it costs for Allen and with zero real risk.

And again - there are guys who I'd make that move for - I've stated them elsewhere. I just don't see enough from Allen or even Burns to conclude that they qualify. Those guys aren't Chris Jones caliber players.

There just aren't that many of those guys out there. I mean there are maybe a dozen defensive players at that level. Maybe a dozen more non-QBs.

And the baseline keeps sliding as to who we consider a 'dude' as we're getting frustrated by the lack of pressure from our front 4. Suddenly a guy who's performing pretty well - slightly above average - is 'a dude' because of how bad Clark/Karlaftis have been this year.

If Clark/Karlaftis were playing well (or if Clark were playing at this 'peak' level more consistently), would anyone act like Allen/Burns were these slam-dunk force multipliers? I don't think so.

Hill is a ****ing stud. Chiefs will be fine moving forward, but we should not be talking down what he’s doing.

Not wrong for some people.

For me, I've been a Brian Burns fan since that draft, I think he'd be in that class here. But I'm on this island alone, after being marooned via mutiny. But I also look at it from the standpoint that as a pair, I think Burns and Karlaftis would be pretty much the perfect match of styles.

Then you just keep throwing shit at the wall there and see what happens.

I don't see the need to talk about him at all, good or bad. He's no longer a Chief.

IMO that's a more sustainable model than the stars/scrubs approach. One injury will derail several games in the stars/scrubs way. At least with strong depth you can be more competitive with a star out for a short time.(Obviously except QB)

Now you're a pariah. ROFL

As for throwing shit at the wall, you have to have shit to throw in the first place. Can't do that if you trade away all your assets for a 2nd tier player.

It's a first rounder and a 2nd. I just don't believe the 2 1's talk.

It's not liek they have no other picks.

Your crew recognized a stronger leader and understood that you'd have had their asses eating poisonous berries and drinking seawater by the end of the week...

He's not worth a first and a second. That's too much.

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A 1st and a 2nd now?

So you really are essentially willing to trade Hill for Burns and call that a good move?

I just cannot get there at all.

Burns, in a better situation, is Marcus Davenport, IMO. That's a really nice player and a good guy to have.

It's NOT a guy you gut your draft and then give a giant contract to.

I think a 1 would get it done, but just using the 2 as an example.

Verderame talked about it in an article today, about the Toney trade. The Chiefs had 12 picks but didn't believe they'd have that many open roster spots so they were ok moving for him.

Woudln't the same qualify here?

3rd round comp pick does not in any way come close to a 1st round pick and more.

You're getting a 2nd-tier player for a 1st-tier price tag.

That would be an awful trade.

They wouldn't have given up a 3rd without 2+ years of cheap play still to come.

The Toney deal, if anything, demonstrates how the Chiefs aren't just looking at this year in how they use their capital (surplus or otherwise).

Couldn't you trade for a pass rusher (dealers choice) and not immediately pay him though?

I mean, take Burns for example. You'd have the 5th year option and a tag year.

So 2.5 years of not cheap play by any means, but you aren't tied in to anything.

Those 2 years will cost, what, $36 million in cap space? Vs like $3 million for Toney.

The 5th year option and the tag for Burns are essentially cap neutral vs. what a LTC would be for the first two years. You ARE immediately paying him.

There's just very little surplus value there.

When a player gets traded, especially for multiple high picks, they suddenly want to get paid. I wonder why that is?

Sure, but you could theoretically tag and trade said player after that if you wanted and recoup some value.

Usually they do, but the team does have the control here.

Let's just keep trading and trading and trading. ROFL

The best news here is that this whole discussion will be over in about 24 hours. Put this stupid shit to bed once and for all.

I mean, why not?

They probably should have done that with OBJ had they known his contract demands would be what they were.

That's the other issue - Burns and his reps aren't stupid. They are gonna leverage the hell out of the draft value you gave up to get him and threaten to hold out.

He'll have the 4 years he needs to have to gain UFA status. Now it could potentially be an idle threat, but he COULD sit out through week 8, return in week 9 to 'honor' the 5th year option and then refuse to sign the franchise tender the following year.

And if you've given up that kind of capital for him, you're up shits creek - you've gotta get a deal done.

And again, the alternative just isn't much prettier. Play on the 5th and the tag and you're entering FA having just used up $36 million of cap space. If you're the Chiefs you may be better off just getting the LTC done, lowering that first year cap hit to $8 millionish, probably $20 millionish in year two and $28 million in year 3 before some outs.

The fact that it's a close question either way demonstrates how little value there actually is in that 5th year option and his franchise tag season.

I think he's a 15 sack guy here in this defense with the offense we have. I won't be convinced otherwise until I see it not happen. So move along.

Yes we would. We would still also have Juju.

I realize he is not a WR, and he onbviously doesn’t have the speed to take the top off of a defense but, Kelce is always a threat to be a game changer in the receiving game. Mahomes and the new guys seem like they are starting to get into sync, as that continues to develop Kelce should be quite sufficient as the “X factor”. I’m just not concerned about where we are in that aspect of the game looking ahead to the post season.

Agreed. This is a much better way of wording it than I did.

Aren't you better served teaching the triggerman than you are taking away his bullets?

When was Mahomes ignoring open receivers because "**** it, Tyreek down there somewhere"?

Were Hardman and DeMarcus Robinson just getting open all the time and I missed it?

In the end… I think both the chiefs and tyreek ended up getting what they wanted. But it’s a shame knowing that after a short time apart and knowing they’re made whole, they’d both benefit from reuniting. Wishful thinking as there’s no reasonable way that would ever happen.

What angers me way more is how much damn WR talent was wasted on moron teams who actually believed outstanding WRs could carry bad QBs. I can’t believe how much money and trade capital other teams pumped into this. That’s ultimately what screwed the chiefs the most. Why in the hell did the panthers and redskins feel the need to pay the moon for mclaurin and dj Moore. And then the skins draft Dotson… for Carson wentz? The lions seriously traded up for Jameson Williams? The chiefs could have had a plan B if all these drooling idiots weren’t screwing up the WR market.

For a few months and then it will be we should trade for X player in the off season

Most accurate QB

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Has there ever been an offense with that many &quot;receiver is wide open deep, has to work back towards an underthrown pass and still comes down with it&quot; completions than this year&#39;s Dolphins? <a href="https://t.co/p7tKwfIUJC">https://t.co/p7tKwfIUJC</a></p>&mdash; Timo Riske (@PFF_Moo) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF_Moo/status/1588259384819433472?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 3, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Yes, apparently, you missed it.

Second half of the Bengals play-off game, backs wide open in the flat, other WR's open in intermediate areas, Mahomes holding the ball and forcing it to Hill.

That's not the only time, but it was the worst time. That whole stretch earlier in the year when we weren't playing well and got to 3-4 it was happening multiple times per game.

Depends how itchy the trigger finger is and how willing he is to hang himself.

There were multiple times where it appeared to be a light bulb moment and he did it and there was no stopping the offense. Then he would go back into Tyler Bray mode and then the 2nd half of the Bengals game happened.

I would love to still have Tyreek. Like I said, no one can convince me we are a better team without him. But we still have the most explosive offense in the game and a large part of that is the triggermans willingness to involve more weapons in the passing game.

Might want to check how many targets Hill got the 2nd half of that game. He got 4 total targets. 2 of them went for first downs. Mahomes wasn't forcing shit to him or ignoring others for him.


That 2nd half Mahomes was ignoring Hill and Kelce when they were wide open. He was all out of sorts.

Here's what happened:
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WA7GGELglXs" title="What went wrong for Mahomes in the AFC Championship?" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

He may have had a concussion.

That play to end the first half is so infuriating.

Something was completely off and makes me think that was possible. I know he got a knee on the helmet I think around half or 2nd half on a run

Not as infuriating as the entire 2nd half. I had friends over for that game, and I turned it off early. It was pretty obvious that Pat was not anywhere near his game that night.

I believe part of the reason for Mahomes second half implosion was related to Tyreek. Hell…the end of the first half was because Mahomes threw it to Tyreek. I have a feeling that Mahomes was just trying to keep Tyreek happy.


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Actually I was wrong. I knew I was because I had cited this stat before. Mahomes only targeted Tyreek ONE time the entire second half of the Bengals playoff game. And that came in the first 2 minutes of the half. ONCE.

His next target wasn't until overtime.

Now, we all know how targets work; the QB has to actually throw in the receiver's direction. So, all I'm saying is staring down a receiver doesn't count. Pat did a lot of uncharacteristic staring at certain receivers in that game. It was pretty shocking to me watching that video above.

totally normal

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tyreek Hill is proving he has the best hands in the NFL by catching a football with his hands covered in butter. <a href="https://t.co/SSwXXwBDss">https://t.co/SSwXXwBDss</a></p>&mdash; TMZ Sports (@TMZ_Sports) <a href="https://twitter.com/TMZ_Sports/status/1588274413807583234?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 3, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Quick, someone make a montage of all his tipped pass interceptions and @ him.

I don't think there's a team that wouldn't be better with Tyreek in it, or who'd want him - for the right money. Which is the kicker really.

I do think it's possible you can develop tunnel vision in both play-calling and QB execution when he's you're one competent WR (obviously Kelce) and it's possible that happened. But that's a failure of coaching and QB play more than anything.

He's a great player and we can see that with how he's doing in Miami with noodle-arm. But so is Pat. Who knows, maybe it's just one of those trades that ultimately works out for everyone.

Should spray WD 40 all over the ball also or spread Crisco all over the ball.

So those Mahomes interceptions that ricocheted off your dumb ****ing ass was the result of... what exactly? You have the best hands, so it can't be that!

They took hill out of the game and the other guys just couldn't step up. We're in a lot better shape this year in that we're spreading the ball around more - because we can.

Sometimes, both teams win in a trade. This was clearly an example of that. Do I miss Tyreek? Absolutely. Are we better off without him? Absolutely. Win-win for both teams. I think our office has evolved because Patrick does not only look to Tyreek, and we get other people in the game. I think the combination of the new receivers has opened up a lot of the playbook.

They didn't take him out of the game. Again, there were plays where he and Kelce were open. Yet Mahomes just wasn't seeing them for some reason. That game had nothing to do with how the Bengals defended our players. It's about what happened to Mahomes?

I thought it was EB? I thought I had seen an article about it…

He was top 3 in droppsies last year in the league. Great hands though

Last year was a weird year for everybody. Even Kelce dropped a lot. He had 1 less drop than Hill on a lot less targets. I'd still consider both of them having great hands.

That was LAST year. THIS year he's leading the league in receiving yards and making his QB have a break out season. So yes, great hands.

I don't get why you guys just can't face the fact that Tyreek is a great WR. It's OK to acknowledge it . It does not make you any less of a Chiefs fan. You'll champion CEH all day, and say he will have his best season (that never comes) and not give Reek any praise when he is having his best season. Just dumb.