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|Zach| 10-02-2011 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeezNutz (Post 7962821)
At this point, the situation is not at all complicated: if Missouri can leave, they should. Period.
Eactly...

But HH asks with his wide pouty Disney eyes....


But why?

Al Bundy 10-02-2011 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7962792)
Yes, but that's because the state of Texas produces more talent than any one school (or even 7) in the state can legally take. UT gets who they want and wants them. If a recruit didn't want UT in the first place, the LHN isn't going to change their mind because they showed some high school highlights. The only recruits Texas loses are the ones that didn't want them or weren't ranked high enough for Texas to want. That won't change, LHN or no.
In your mind.. yes. But it doesn't always happen that way.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7962741)
You swung and missed on your characterization of the PAC situation. They didn't want Texas because they knew the LHN was going to screw everything up.
No, they absolutely wanted Texas, they just don't want the LHN. That, and they didn't want Tech and OSU as well. Our rules already allowed for the LHN, the PAC's didn't, now you want to be retroactive to what MU and the others voted for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7962741)
Aside from that it seems obvious Texas intents was to use this frayed Big 12 to get the LHN up and running and then bolt to be independent when it started raining down money. They over played their hand and now you have this complete mess.
There's no doubt about that, but they didn't do anything that was outside of the rules all the institutions voted to install. It seems disingenuous to say, "you can do this" and then be surprised at how successfully they do it, and then try to make them turn it into something for everyone else because we feel inadequate about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7962741)
Why, with all the success the Big 12 have had are all these teams bolting? Pinkel said it best...this league has problems and everyone knows what they are.
There's no doubt, all I'm asking is what does Missouri think is needed to make it right. I mean, if it involves tearing something down your by-laws said you could create, just so you can come to terms with a feeling of disparity, I think the other member institutions have just as much of a hand in "the problems". What's funny about that is this comes from an area that if this were a public "problem" they would call it "socialism". But, apparently socialism is OK as long as you're a conference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7962741)
LHN network has the ability to skew all kinds of advantages towards Texas...and that is fine this is a free market. They have the right to do that but those other teams also have a right to call bullshit and try to form a conference situation that works for everyone and isn't completely toxic because the greed of Texas made it that way.

This whole thread you keep asking why this and why that...why would people leave the Big 12? Why not.
I guess I would say because of all the reasons you think you will find somewhere else. Look, if running away from the problem is your and these other school's method of solving it, that's your right. I just personally believe that the real problem is your own focus. I can't control someone else's intentions, I can only control mine. So maybe, if everyone stops envying what Texas has, they could instead look towards at what they can try to build. But, you seem to want to give up, call it worthless, and move away.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7962827)
Eactly...

But HH asks with his wide pouty Disney eyes....


But why?
Why can't we have a mature conversation about this? Has anything I have discussed with you really been a pout? What is it about sport's fans mentalities that unless you reduce someone else to a cartoon of their position, you can't make a thoughtful point? I thought we were having a decent conversation until this point.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7962886)
I just personally believe that the real problem is your own focus. I can't control someone else's intentions, I can only control mine. So maybe, if everyone stops envying what Texas has, they could instead look towards at what they can try to build. But, you seem to want to give up, call it worthless, and move away.
You assholes have to pick something and go with it. Are we throwing our hands up and going away because it is too hard or are we foolish for going to another conference because we will get killed.

You can't have both.

If Missouri has a chance to go to a more stable and profitable conference then it would be silly not to. If we are forced to stay and put all of this humpty dumpty conference back together again then so be it but if we have the chance to move on up in the world we would be stupid not to.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UCF Knight (Post 7962865)
In your mind.. yes. But it doesn't always happen that way.
You still don't say anything. Can you give me an example?

Mosbonian 10-02-2011 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7962827)
Eactly...

But HH asks with his wide pouty Disney eyes....


But why?
Hey...don't associate Walt and Mickey with anyone linked to KU.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 7962911)
Hey...don't associate Walt and Mickey with anyone linked to KU.
Why not, I probably live closer to it than you do.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7962899)
Why can't we have a mature conversation about this? Has anything I have discussed with you really been a pout? What is it about sport's fans mentalities that unless you reduce someone else to a cartoon of their position, you can't make a thoughtful point? I thought we were having a decent conversation until this point.
I am using your posts to create a parody of you where you act dumb and don't understand why Missouri would go while making these ridiculous arguments for how the Big 12 is really the place to be.

Your rationalizations always end up with B12 as a happy family because if that isn't the case then your Jayhawks are in a world they don't want to be in.

I think the satire fits.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 7962911)
Hey...don't associate Walt and Mickey with anyone linked to KU.
ROFL

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7962921)
I am using your posts to create a parody of you where you act dumb and don't understand why Missouri would go while making these ridiculous arguments for how the Big 12 is really the place to be.

Your rationalizations always end up with B12 as a happy family because if that isn't the case then your Jayhawks are in a world they don't want to be in.

I think the satire fits.
Alright, then I'll quit pretending like you have a worthwhile position. I never said Missouri shouldn't go. I only wanted someone to articulate to me why they think they have to. It is obvious to me, it isn't a specific. Its just a general inadequacy about being in the same conference as Texas. There is no real "recruiting advantage" that wasn't already there. Its just envy and you are willing to whore yourself out to a conference who just wants you for your TV markets. And, once they possess them, will send you back to the outskirts of the conference to commiserate with Arkansas, tell you not speak unless spoken to, and to fix them a turkey pot pie on your way back.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7962942)
Alright, then I'll quit pretending like you have a worthwhile position. I never said Missouri shouldn't go. I only wanted someone to articulate to me why they think they have to. It is obvious to me, it isn't a specific. Its just a general inadequacy about being in the same conference as Texas. There is no real "recruiting advantage" that wasn't already there. Its just envy and you are willing to whore yourself out to a conference who just wants you for your TV markets. And, once they possess them, will send you back to the outskirts of the conference to commiserate with Arkansas, tell you not speak unless spoken to, and to fix them a turkey pot pie on your way back.
Awww, don't go away mad.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7962949)
Awww, don't go away mad.
Frustrated, not really mad. You're the one that decided to turn a conversation into a satire.

Mosbonian 10-02-2011 09:13 PM
HH...it's very simple.

We grow very tired of a conference that is shallow now. OU and UT will bolt at the first oportunity of grabbing a larger payday. MU, for once has the opportunity to get away from what is truly the University of Texas conference.

My question to you...why won't you just accept that if KU had the same opportunity that MU does right now, they would jump all over it with both feet.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7962957)
Frustrated, not really mad. You're the one that decided to turn a conversation into a satire.
I think it is a great way to get a point across.

Also if you want to act like nobody here has talked about the benefits of Missouri going to the SEC then you are either playing dumb or seeing what you want to see.

Mosbonian 10-02-2011 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7962917)
Why not, I probably live closer to it than you do.
Proximity doesn't make you a better relative.

Also because it is a quality operation with a PR machine that rivals none.

Plus...they are never afraid to take chances, step outside the norm and try not to sit in a comfort zone.

The same cannot be said for KU.

Mr. Plow 10-02-2011 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 7962959)
My question to you...why won't you just accept that if KU had the same opportunity that MU does right now, they would jump all over it with both feet.
As a KU fan, I would hope to God they would get out while the gettin' was good.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 7962959)
HH...it's very simple.

We grow very tired of a conference that is shallow now. OU and UT will bolt at the first oportunity of grabbing a larger payday. MU, for once has the opportunity to get away from what is truly the University of Texas conference.

My question to you...why won't you just accept that if KU had the same opportunity that MU does right now, they would jump all over it with both feet.
Well, as everyone has pointed out, UT has kind of painted themselves into a corner with their Longhorn Network, so there really isn't a larger payday for them unless they get rid of the LHN, which it should be obvious, they are not. OU could have easily gotten in front of you to the SEC, but they aren't really interested in the SEC (and they don't even have an AAU status). So, they aren't going anywhere either.

No, I don't think KU would go to the SEC even if they had the opportunity. They might go to the ACC or the PAC, and they would probably go to the B1G. But, if they could stay in the Big XII, get paid well, and not have to break up their regional rivalries, I think only the B1G would cause them to jump. We don't fit SEC culture.

I have never said MU didn't have more opportunities than KU, for a number of reasons, so my points are not really motivated from there.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:19 PM
Why would Missouri go to the SEC?

Why don't you like the Big 12?

Hey! Guys?

Whyyyyyy?

http://yellingatpixels.files.wordpre...y_43393_10.jpg

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7962964)
I think it is a great way to get a point across.

Also if you want to act like nobody here has talked about the benefits of Missouri going to the SEC then you are either playing dumb or seeing what you want to see.
Well, I have read this thread and lots of the older thread and the articles in the KCStar. But, please, point me to the post or story that really outlines it. I could understand the B1G. The opportunities and cultural fit there would be outstanding. The SEC... I really don't get that quite as much. It seems like a negotiation ploy to me, which I could understand from the university perspective. If you have leverage, attempt to use it. I don't understand the fan reasoning.

By the way, the best way to get a point across to actually make a great point. When you have to resort to belittling humor, its usually viewed as a crutch to support a weak position.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963003)
Well, I have read this thread and lots of the older thread and the articles in the KCStar. But, please, point me to the post or story that really outlines it. I could understand the B1G. The opportunities and cultural fit there would be outstanding. The SEC... I really don't get that quite as much. It seems like a negotiation ploy to me, which I could understand from the university perspective. If you have leverage, attempt to use it. I don't understand the fan reasoning.

By the way, the best way to get a point across to actually make a great point. When you have to resort to belittling humor, its usually viewed as a crutch to support a weak position.
First of all it is a stable and premier conference.

Stable...it isn't trying to convince city schools to come or looking like it is going to break apart every 5 mins. There isn't even a buy out clause. Nobody wants to leave it.

They are going to the table with ESPN with their expanded conference and it is going to rain down money. an SEC Network in partnership with ESPN is coming. Texas A&M and Missouri are a big part of the SEC's plans for that network. So are Virginia Tech and N.C. State. But that's in the future. For now, Missouri and Texas are important footprints and markets for the network.

Bigger games...bigger competition...a season's worth of better football.

We won't have to worry WTF is up with the SEC every year if we go there.

Mosbonian 10-02-2011 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963003)
By the way, the best way to get a point across to actually make a great point. When you have to resort to belittling humor, its usually viewed as a crutch to support a weak position.
Only in a well structured debate. Sometime belittling humor is used to show contempt for the position of your discussion opponent.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 7962977)
Proximity doesn't make you a better relative.
And yet relativity and proximity are inter-relating terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 7962977)
Also because it is a quality operation with a PR machine that rivals none.
Wouldn't a "PR machine that rivals none" be a rather poor PR machine? I bet the Jayhawk has a better PR than the Tiger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 7962977)
Plus...they are never afraid to take chances, step outside the norm and try not to sit in a comfort zone.

The same cannot be said for KU.
Are you serious? Are you trying to tell me Disney doesn't have a formula? Here, let me tell you a premise and let's see if you can pinpoint which Disney movie it is:

A young character suddenly finds itself on its own, often deprived of one or both parents, and has to undertake a journey of self discovery, acquiring a few trusted friends along the way, to confront the demons born from its childhood innocence.

Go ahead tell me what unique movie that formula belongs to.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963003)

By the way, the best way to get a point across to actually make a great point. When you have to resort to belittling humor, its usually viewed as a crutch to support a weak position.
Get over it.

Or don't.

But don't play stupid like everyone hasn't talked about the merits of these moves to death.

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 09:32 PM
Honestly, I think most Mizzou fans want to leave because deep down we know that Texas and OU are not going to stay in the Big XII. Texas will probably go independent or to the Pac, and OU will then be Pac bound as well. The SEC might not be a better fit for Mizzou, but it sure as hell is a better fit than being in a non-BCS conference. The SEC is not going anywhere. Someone pointed out that their are no exit penalties to leave the SEC. Why is that?

I think Mizzou will be fine in the SEC. It will be different, but it the SEC will be there. There is no guarantee that the BIG XII will. And when the SEC forms their own network, Mizzou will grow even more.

Why should Mizzou be so loyal to the Big XII when Texas and OU have none?

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 7963044)
Only in a well structured debate. Sometime belittling humor is used to show contempt for the position of your discussion opponent.
HH realignment opinion process.

1. Start with a scenario where Kansas is happy and the B12 is a great conference to be in.

2. Rationalize.

3. Reach

4. Reach

5. Rationalize.

6. Why would anyone want anything other than the Big 12? WHY?

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7963022)
First of all it is a stable and premier conference.

Stable...it isn't trying to convince city schools to come or looking like it is going to break apart every 5 mins. There isn't even a buy out clause. Nobody wants to leave it.

They are going to the table with ESPN with their expanded conference and it is going to rain down money. an SEC Network in partnership with ESPN is coming. Texas A&M and Missouri are a big part of the SEC's plans for that network. So are Virginia Tech and N.C. State. But that's in the future. For now, Missouri and Texas are important footprints and markets for the network.

Bigger games...bigger competition...a season's worth of better football.

We won't have to worry WTF is up with the SEC every year if we go there.
Exactly. Zach said it better than I did.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963077)
Honestly, I think most Mizzou fans want to leave because deep down we know that Texas and OU are not going to stay in the Big XII.
Your whole post was great but I am just going to stop here in the hopes that HH doesn't miss this very valid point and doesn't act like he didn't see it.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 7963044)
Only in a well structured debate. Sometime belittling humor is used to show contempt for the position of your discussion opponent.
Usually, its meant to show off in front of a crowd you know already supports or is in league with your position. You know, kinda like junior high. If there were actually some specifics said, I could see this technique. But look through the discussion, its only vague "If you can't figure it out" or "I shouldn't have to restate these things" or "Isn't it obvious". Those aren't answers, they are evasions, therefore the belittling humor is an attempt to extricate themselves from the discussion while trying to claim a victory.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7963081)
Your whole post was great but I am just going to stop here in the hopes that HH doesn't miss this very valid point and doesn't act like he didn't see it.
I actually did answer that point already. So, explain to me this better opportunity scenario?

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963086)
I actually did answer that point already. So, explain to me this better opportunity scenario?
Wow. lol.

http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/head-in-the-sand.jpg

dirk digler 10-02-2011 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963003)
Well, I have read this thread and lots of the older thread and the articles in the KCStar. But, please, point me to the post or story that really outlines it. I could understand the B1G. The opportunities and cultural fit there would be outstanding. The SEC... I really don't get that quite as much. It seems like a negotiation ploy to me, which I could understand from the university perspective. If you have leverage, attempt to use it. I don't understand the fan reasoning.

By the way, the best way to get a point across to actually make a great point. When you have to resort to belittling humor, its usually viewed as a crutch to support a weak position.
http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...postcount=1835

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:39 PM
You responding to something does not make it invalid.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963077)
Honestly, I think most Mizzou fans want to leave because deep down we know that Texas and OU are not going to stay in the Big XII. Texas will probably go independent or to the Pac, and OU will then be Pac bound as well. The SEC might not be a better fit for Mizzou, but it sure as hell is a better fit than being in a non-BCS conference. The SEC is not going anywhere. Someone pointed out that their are no exit penalties to leave the SEC. Why is that?

I think Mizzou will be fine in the SEC. It will be different, but it the SEC will be there. There is no guarantee that the BIG XII will. And when the SEC forms their own network, Mizzou will grow even more.

Why should Mizzou be so loyal to the Big XII when Texas and OU have none?
Well, the PAC said they aren't taking the LHN and they have basically said no to OU. Texas doesn't want to go independent because they don't want to have to ship their non revenue sports all across the country.

Mizzou may very well be fine in the SEC, but there is no guarantee of that anymore than the Big XII won't continue to go on, and succeed, even if they do so as "the Bickersons".

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 09:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963086)
I actually did answer that point already. So, explain to me this better opportunity scenario?
Going to a conference that is not going to break apart and leave you on the outside looking in of the BCS is part of the better opportunity.

Better exposure on the national stage is another.

More money for the school is yet another, and being part of a league wide network as an equal partner is a huge part of that.

The fact that said money will be guaranteed, since the SEC will not dissolve, as opposed to any BIG XII contract, which becomes worthless the second Texas and OU leave is still another.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:40 PM
Of course there isn't a guarantee.

This is sports and we are not reeruned.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler (Post 7963100)
So, its purely a financial motivation for you. That's fair.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963116)
Going to a conference that is not going to break apart and leave you on the outside looking in of the BCS is part of the better opportunity.

Better exposure on the national stage is another.

More money for the school is yet another, and being part of a league wide network as an equal partner is a huge part of that.

The fact that said money will be guaranteed, since the SEC will not dissolve, as opposed to any BIG XII contract, which becomes worthless the second Texas and OU leave is still another.
I am responding to this sooo....

These don't work as points anymore. Create new ones.

/HH thread rules.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7963106)
You responding to something does not make it invalid.
So, we're back to avoidance. OK.

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963110)
Well, the PAC said they aren't taking the LHN and they have basically said no to OU. Texas doesn't want to go independent because they don't want to have to ship their non revenue sports all across the country.

Mizzou may very well be fine in the SEC, but there is no guarantee of that anymore than the Big XII won't continue to go on, and succeed, even if they do so as "the Bickersons".
Just because Texas does not want to go independent at this moment in time does not guarantee they are going to stick around. If it nets them more money, Texas would be out the door before anyone knew what hit them.

I don't think that the PAC said no to OU...I think they said no to OU and OSU as a package. They were willing to swallow it if Texas was in the deal, but if the PAC could just get OU without little brother, I think they would be all over it.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7963123)
Of course there isn't a guarantee.

This is sports and we are not reeruned.
I was just responding to the post. I didn't bring up guarantees.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963125)
So, its purely a financial motivation for you. That's fair.
Stability.

I know you think that isn't a big deal but it is the main reason that is obvious to people who are not KU rationalizers acting dumb in conversations.

dirk digler 10-02-2011 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963125)
So, its purely a financial motivation for you. That's fair.
It is always about the money and as Zach said stability. I would throw in just overall fairness as well.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963144)
I was just responding to the post. I didn't bring up guarantees.
Do you think the SEC and the Big 12 have the same level of stability?

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7963123)
Of course there isn't a guarantee.

This is sports and we are not reeruned.
There are no guarantees, but the SEC is the strongest conference in the country, and is as close to a guarantee as one can get.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963143)
Just because Texas does not want to go independent at this moment in time does not guarantee they are going to stick around. If it nets them more money, Texas would be out the door before anyone knew what hit them.
Yes, but you have to paint the plausible scenario. This is just projecting a worse case scenario with a really small chance of probability. It would take Texas wanting to move their sports team to some other region AND another conference that is willing to put up with the arrangement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963143)
I don't think that the PAC said no to OU...I think they said no to OU and OSU as a package. They were willing to swallow it if Texas was in the deal, but if the PAC could just get OU without little brother, I think they would be all over it.
It would take OU if UT was included. UT has the LHN which the PAC has said it is not willing to accommodate. Therefore, the PAC does not want OU.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:47 PM
There is no reasonable incentive for Missouri to go to the SEC. None that I can see. The Big 12 is doing FANTASTIC these days.

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformation...7-minister.jpg

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7963150)
Stability.

I know you think that isn't a big deal but it is the main reason that is obvious to people who are not KU rationalizers acting dumb in conversations.
No, I think that's a fair point. I don't know why it took so long to come around to it. Oh yeah, because first you wanted to blame it on the competitive and recruiting disadvantage of the LHN. Please, pull up where I said I didn't think stability wasn't a big deal. But, you do realize, right now, you are as much the cause of the instability as anyone else. It seemed somewhat hypocritical when OU used this rationale, and I don't think it is any less so when MU does.

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963168)
Yes, but you have to paint the plausible scenario. This is just projecting a worse case scenario with a really small chance of probability. It would take Texas wanting to move their sports team to some other region AND another conference that is willing to put up with the arrangement.



It would take OU if UT was included. UT has the LHN which the PAC has said it is not willing to accommodate. Therefore, the PAC does not want OU.
The PAC would take my dog and a jar of change if Texas was included in the bargain. Texas becoming independent and trying to be the next Notre Dame is not a worst case scenario, it was the endgame for Texas before the super conference mentality became all the rage. Texas truly believes that they are on that level of national following.

Plus, Texas can go independent in football but let the rest of their sports stay in what remains of the BIG XII. Since everyone in this conference is their bitch, they could get away with it. Is Kansas going to be for giving Texas the complete boot if they want to pull out in football? I doubt it.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963159)
There are no guarantees, but the SEC is the strongest conference in the country, and is as close to a guarantee as one can get.
They are the strongest football conference in the country. Academics, sports other than football and baseball, they aren't nearly as strong. Remember when MU was going on and on about the academics in the B1G as the reason they wanted to leave last year? Well, you and Vanderbilt will now probably have two things in common if and when you go there.

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963183)
No, I think that's a fair point. I don't know why it took so long to come around to it. Oh yeah, because first you wanted to blame it on the competitive and recruiting disadvantage of the LHN. Please, pull up where I said I didn't think stability wasn't a big deal. But, you do realize, right now, you are as much the cause of the instability as anyone else. It seemed somewhat hypocritical when OU used this rationale, and I don't think it is any less so when MU does.
This is bullshit. This only works if the BIG XII were to dissolve without Mizzou, which no one thinks will happen. Texas is just as much to blame, due to their inability to negotiate and compromise. Why shouldn't Mizzou go to a place where they will be treated better?

In the SEC, B1G, PAC, etc. the teams are equals off of the field. They understand that when their conference is strong and everyone works together, everyone makes money. Texas doesn't get it. They think they deserve a different set of rules. That is fine and dandy as long as they get away with it, but don't bitch when schools start bailing out and look out for the own self-interest.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963193)
The PAC would take my dog and a jar of change if Texas was included in the bargain. Texas becoming independent and trying to be the next Notre Dame is not a worst case scenario, it was the endgame for Texas before the super conference mentality became all the rage. Texas truly believes that they are on that level of national following.

Plus, Texas can go independent in football but let the rest of their sports stay in what remains of the BIG XII. Since everyone in this conference is their bitch, they could get away with it. Is Kansas going to be for giving Texas the complete boot if they want to pull out in football? I doubt it.
You guys are arguing both sides. Did the PAC stick to their guns and business plan and say no to the Longhorn Network or would they take them, your dog and a jar of change?

Notre Dame is located relatively close to both the upper midwest and the Atlantic Coast, so their options for non revenue sports is greater. Texas would have to endure some great travel costs and cultural misfits to do so. Its not nearly as easy as you seem to propose. Texas wants the Big XII, it gives them the best of both worlds. It didn't want it if OU bolted. But the PAC said no to OU and OU said no to the SEC. Rumor has it the B1G also said no to OU. So, why would they leave a conference where they make a lot of money and have a great path to the BCS? They won't unless Texas wants to alter the LHN.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963183)
No, I think that's a fair point. I don't know why it took so long to come around to it. Oh yeah, because first you wanted to blame it on the competitive and recruiting disadvantage of the LHN. Please, pull up where I said I didn't think stability wasn't a big deal. But, you do realize, right now, you are as much the cause of the instability as anyone else. It seemed somewhat hypocritical when OU used this rationale, and I don't think it is any less so when MU does.
Yes. Because this is the first time stability has been brought up in regards to talking about Missouri wanting to leave.

HH: Why would Missouri leave?

Zach: Gives a lot of reasons...one of them stability.

HH: Show me where I said stability wasn't a big deal.

I have never been trolled so hard by someone in my life. I am not even mad it is amazing.

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963197)
They are the strongest football conference in the country. Academics, sports other than football and baseball, they aren't nearly as strong. Remember when MU was going on and on about the academics in the B1G as the reason they wanted to leave last year? Well, you and Vanderbilt will now probably have two things in common if and when you go there.
I can see Mizzou being in football about where they are now. It is not like Mizzou has been dominating in football. Football is a work in progress and will continue to be so regardless of where Mizzou is. Basketball could even be better, especially if we get a real coach.

As for the AAU stuff, Vandy, Florida, and A & M are all AAU schools, so Mizzou would be the elite of academics in the SEC. I see no problem with that.

As to the SEC not being strong in other sports....they are least there. If there is no BIG XII, does it matter how weak the other SEC sports are? At least Mizzou will be in a major conference.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963197)
They are the strongest football conference in the country. Academics, sports other than football and baseball, they aren't nearly as strong. Remember when MU was going on and on about the academics in the B1G as the reason they wanted to leave last year? Well, you and Vanderbilt will now probably have two things in common if and when you go there.
That wasn't THE reason why. Once again...you are full of shit and cherry picking things to create disingenuous characterizations of these issues. It was "a" reason why among others.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963215)
This is bullshit. This only works if the BIG XII were to dissolve without Mizzou, which no one thinks will happen. Texas is just as much to blame, due to their inability to negotiate and compromise. Why shouldn't Mizzou go to a place where they will be treated better?

In the SEC, B1G, PAC, etc. the teams are equals off of the field. They understand that when their conference is strong and everyone works together, everyone makes money. Texas doesn't get it. They think they deserve a different set of rules. That is fine and dandy as long as they get away with it, but don't bitch when schools start bailing out and look out for the own self-interest.
Look, anyone that threatens to leave is causing "instability". Instability doesn't mean "collapse". I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "equals off the field". Financially, sure, for the most part. But, I think you're kidding yourself if you think the SEC heavyweights are going to look at you any different than heavyweights of another conference. USC and UCLA get extra considerations in the PAC. Florida in the SEC. There are somethings that size and population will get you. It may be more muted, but it isn't as "equal" as you make it out to be.

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963227)
You guys are arguing both sides. Did the PAC stick to their guns and business plan and say no to the Longhorn Network or would they take them, your dog and a jar of change?

Notre Dame is located relatively close to both the upper midwest and the Atlantic Coast, so their options for non revenue sports is greater. Texas would have to endure some great travel costs and cultural misfits to do so. Its not nearly as easy as you seem to propose. Texas wants the Big XII, it gives them the best of both worlds. It didn't want it if OU bolted. But the PAC said no to OU and OU said no to the SEC. Rumor has it the B1G also said no to OU. So, why would they leave a conference where they make a lot of money and have a great path to the BCS? They won't unless Texas wants to alter the LHN.
Travel costs mean nothing in any of this. Football by far incurs the most travel expenses, and Texas plays football wherever it wants now.

So SEC country is a bunch of cultural misfits then? It is that kind of arrogance that has helped create this whole fiasco in the first place.

I do not think we are arguing both sides at all. Folks in this thread have given multiple reasons why Mizzou leaving is good for the school in the long run. That is what we care about. What is best for Mizzou. I fail to see how it is okay for Texas and OU to do whatever they want, with no regard for anyone else, and that is somehow okay...but don't let Mizzou think about doing anything...that would be horrible.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7963239)
That wasn't THE reason why. Once again...you are full of shit and cherry picking things to create disingenuous characterizations of these issues. It was "a" reason why among others.
Hey, I was just following the conversation. I think you have this idea of what the conversation is in your head and assume everyone else is following your narrative. When I asked, you and everyone else just gave me a bunch of generalities. Would it really have been so hard to just say: "Financial payoff and stability"? No, you had to blather on about the obviousness of the big bad LHN and now you are just backtracking.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 10:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeezNutz (Post 7930426)
It's about stability at this point, and I have absolutely no confidence that we won't be revisiting this whole thing in the near future.
Oh Hi there September 21st.

Al Bundy 10-02-2011 10:07 PM
Holy, are you a KU fan?

|Zach| 10-02-2011 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7948810)
Interesting read from Tramel at the Oklahoman.

Just because the Bedlam plot of the Big 12 soap opera has ended — we're staying right here, in this vampire of a conference — doesn't mean the story is over.

Your turn, Missouri.

Your turn to decide whether this Dark Shadows league that can't be killed is the best place for you.
I don't know if the SEC wants Missouri, and I don't know if Missouri wants to go. But this I know. The SEC should want Mizzou, and Mizzou should want the SEC.

The Big 12 will survive without Missouri. I said something off hand 18 months ago, not sure even if I really believed it, but danged if it hasn't come to pass.
As long as you've got OU and Texas, you've got a league. As long as you've got the Sooners and the Longhorns, which means you've got OSU and Texas Tech, too, you've got a conference. Even if it's a ghastly shell of what it once was.

So Missouri doesn't hold the Big 12's fate in its hands. Sure would be nice if the Tigers stayed, because don't look now, but good football programs suddenly are in short supply.

But the Big 12 will endure. Nothing short of a stake through Bevo's heart will end the Big 12. OU, OSU and Tech aren't going to the Pac, Texas has everything it wants and Iowa State, Kansas, Baylor and K-State are just happy to have a place to hang their hat.

Do the math. That's eight schools. Heck, don't expand at all and you still could have a league. It's been done before.

So Missouri, do whatever you want. Don't worry about putting Iowa State out of business or getting sued by Kenny Starr. Misery loves company, so we'd love for you to stay, but whether Missouri loves company or Missouri loves misery, well, that's up to you.

But the SEC would be nuts not to take a crack at Mizzou. If the ACC has closed the door to raiders — imagine that, a conference with the vision and leadership to proactively safeguard its house — then the SEC's options are limited.

The powerhouse league can't stay at 13 schools. That's just goofy. Got to get to 14, which means if OU isn't interested (and the Sooners most definitely are not), then Missouri and West Virginia are the viable candidates.
Mizzou brings much better markets for television contracts, thanks to Kansas City and St. Louis; much better academic reputation, which could start to appeal to the SEC with the addition of another stellar school in Texas A&M; and, don't forget, good football.

Maybe you could argue West Virginia trumps Missouri on the gridiron. But I would argue otherwise, that if you put Mizzou in the Big East the last several years, the BCS bowls would have rolled into Columbia.

So why should Missouri go? I know, everyone says the same about Mizzou they said about A&M, that the Aggies will be squashed in the SEC.

I don't believe it for either the Tigers or Aggies. They won't contend regularly in the current SEC West landscape, but they won't be doormats.

And it's not like Missouri or A&M has been tearing up the Big 12. Missouri has made two Big 12 title games, 2007 and 2008, winning neither. A&M has made two Big 12 title games, 1997 and 1998, winning the latter. In a huge upset.
That's the success rate at stake in the Aggies' move and the Tigers' decision? Two division titles in 15 years? One major bowl berth (the '98 Aggies in the Sugar) between them in 15 years?

That's what Missouri is gambling with? Mizzou could make a lot more money, find conference stability and leave the Longhorns behind. And the Tigers should forego all that because they might win two North Divisions in 15 years?

Missouri's frustration with Texas is only now bubbling. Nebraska's feelings were well-documented. Then A&M's. Finally, OU's.

Now, Mizzou football coach Gary Pinkel carries the banner. His disgust with the Longhorn Network no longer is hidden.

Why would Missouri leave? Why in the world would Missouri stay?

If the SEC is interested, there's only one thing that should keep the Tigers in the Big 12.

The Big Ten. Missouri sort of started this mess 18 months ago, with its glee at Big Ten expansion. Turns out the Big Ten wasn't interested.

But Mizzou still would love to be in the Big Ten, both for academics and athletics. If Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany gives Missouri any reason for hope that his conference could expand in the future and Mizzou would be a prime candidate, that would prompt Missouri to, just like the Sooners did, swallow its pride and hold its nose and put on a happy face.

Otherwise, Missouri has little reason to turn down the SEC, which has many reasons to offer.

Not that it will make much difference back here in the shadows of darkness.


Read more: http://newsok.com/missouri-should-fo...#ixzz1ZDZTv9q2
Oh hey Stability.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 10:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Good (Post 7931312)
That has nothing to do with why I want out as an MU fan. I want out because the conference isn't stable. Eventually, there will be a huge game of musical chairs, and I want to make sure we have a nice, comfy seat when the music stops.

K-State has beaten Texas several times. What do you think that's worth when it comes to realignment?
Oh hey...stability.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewie (Post 7953032)
It's no longer about rivalries. It's about going somewhere that seems stable.
Even a Kansas fan gets it.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 10:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963270)
Hey, I was just following the conversation. I think you have this idea of what the conversation is in your head and assume everyone else is following your narrative. When I asked, you and everyone else just gave me a bunch of generalities. Would it really have been so hard to just say: "Financial payoff and stability"? No, you had to blather on about the obviousness of the big bad LHN and now you are just backtracking.
I did that because I find it really hard to believe someone with a working brain hadn't seen those answers in this thread.

So if I was wrong at any point I was wrong for assuming how smart you were.

Apologies.

dirk digler 10-02-2011 10:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963270)
Hey, I was just following the conversation. I think you have this idea of what the conversation is in your head and assume everyone else is following your narrative. When I asked, you and everyone else just gave me a bunch of generalities. Would it really have been so hard to just say: "Financial payoff and stability"? No, you had to blather on about the obviousness of the big bad LHN and now you are just backtracking.
There is many reasons why. Pinkel has stated he absolutely hates the LHN because he believes it gives Texas a huge recruiting advantage.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 10:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963261)
Travel costs mean nothing in any of this. Football by far incurs the most travel expenses, and Texas plays football wherever it wants now.
It isn't just travel expenses in costs. Right now, parents can go to the majority of their kid's athletics contests. But, if Texas puts its non football sports in the ACC, how often can they go now. All of their away games are major trips for a family, whereas now Baylor, Tech, OU and OSU are all day trips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963261)
So SEC country is a bunch of cultural misfits then? It is that kind of arrogance that has helped create this whole fiasco in the first place.
Well, now you're misrepresenting what I said. I was saying that if Texas went to the ACC or the PAC, they would be the cultural misfits there. You do realize there are subtle differences among regions of the country, don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963261)
I do not think we are arguing both sides at all. Folks in this thread have given multiple reasons why Mizzou leaving is good for the school in the long run. That is what we care about. What is best for Mizzou. I fail to see how it is okay for Texas and OU to do whatever they want, with no regard for anyone else, and that is somehow okay...but don't let Mizzou think about doing anything...that would be horrible.
So, it is an envy thing. They did it, so I'm going to do it too? Look, when UT and OU were doing this, I was critical of them as well. You taking up that torch now doesn't mean its any more noble than when they did. You guys were arguing both sides depending on what narrative you wanted to fill:

If your argument was that the LHN was evil and the PAC proved it by not wanting it, then the PAC doesn't want the LHN.

If your argument is that UT is just looking for a better deal like in the PAC, then you must be arguing the PAC will change their stance on the LHN or Texas will alter it.

It can't be both.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UCF Knight (Post 7963285)
Holy, are you a KU fan?
Yes.

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 10:14 PM
Seeing some conflicting tweets about what today's Big XII meeting meant. Chip Brown seems to think we are staying, but other tweets say Deaton is playing some serious hard ball. Which is more likely?

|Zach| 10-02-2011 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk digler (Post 7963308)
There is many reasons why. Pinkel has stated he absolutely hates the LHN because he believes it gives Texas a huge recruiting advantage.
All of which have been talked about over and over in this thread already.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963315)
Seeing some conflicting tweets about what today's Big XII meeting meant. Chip Brown seems to think we are staying, but other tweets say Deaton is playing some serious hard ball. Which is more likely?
Chip Brown is the voice of Texas so this is not surprising.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeezNutz (Post 7927467)
You want to develop an elite program, you need to be able to compete with the best.

Otherwise, it's all a joke anyway. Beyond this, going to a stable conference should be the first and foremost priority.
This is new.

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963309)
It isn't just travel expenses in costs. Right now, parents can go to the majority of their kid's athletics contests. But, if Texas puts its non football sports in the ACC, how often can they go now. All of their away games are major trips for a family, whereas now Baylor, Tech, OU and OSU are all day trips.



Well, now you're misrepresenting what I said. I was saying that if Texas went to the ACC or the PAC, they would be the cultural misfits there. You do realize there are subtle differences among regions of the country, don't you?



So, it is an envy thing. They did it, so I'm going to do it too? Look, when UT and OU were doing this, I was critical of them as well. You taking up that torch now doesn't mean its any more noble than when they did. You guys were arguing both sides depending on what narrative you wanted to fill:

If your argument was that the LHN was evil and the PAC proved it by not wanting it, then the PAC doesn't want the LHN.

If your argument is that UT is just looking for a better deal like in the PAC, then you must be arguing the PAC will change their stance on the LHN or Texas will alter it.

It can't be both.
Are all KU fans this dense? This has nothing to do with envy. This has to do with the fact that no one at Mizzou believes that Texas or OU will stay faithful to this conference. Period.

As Zach has stated repeatedly..it is about stability first and foremost. The fact that we get to tell Texas to **** off on our way out the door is just a bonus.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7963307)
I did that because I find it really hard to believe someone with a working brain hadn't seen those answers in this thread.

So if I was wrong at any point I was wrong for assuming how smart you were.

Apologies.
Here is what I originally responded to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by eazyb81
I think the main issue would be turning LHN into a legit Big 12 Network, and the odds of that happening are around 0%.
To wit I said:

Quote:
I don't understand why the schools that can't support a TV Network of their own don't just produce one of their own? Why does this have to be such a big deal? I bet that network would have a wider audience, it would definitely be able to broadcast more games. I fail to see why this is such a huge stumbling block, if it indeed that it is.
Now, you're trying to tell me its all about stability. This is what I mean about the narrative in your brain that nobody else is privy to. I'm not a mind reader. If you want to have a discussion, you have to relate to me what you think. You chose to ignore that and have now turned the whole thing around like I was always addressing the stability issue. So, yes, in the narrative that goes on in your mind, I'm sure I don't have a working brain. That would make it much easier to fulfill your fantasy of being completely forthcoming in you arguments.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963328)
Are all KU fans this dense? This has nothing to do with envy. This has to do with the fact that no one at Mizzou believes that Texas or OU will stay faithful to this conference. Period.

As Zach has stated repeatedly..it is about stability first and foremost. The fact that we get to tell Texas to **** off on our way out the door is just a bonus.
Yes, we're all this dense. I'm glad you guys could settle on the stability issue and stomp up and down about that as if it was your original point. Sorry, but your reasoning sure sounded like envy to me. "Everyone else is doing it!"

|Zach| 10-02-2011 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963343)
That would make it much easier to fulfill your fantasy of being completely forthcoming in you arguments.
We brought up stability because it is an obvious incentive to bolt the Big 12. It is an obvious incentive for anyone who has, has thought of, or is thinking of leaving the Big 12. It has been brought up a lot as you can see by the posts I brought up.

Yet when we bring it up you act like it is some magical idea that just popped into your brain.

You either are...or are playing stupid.

Zach: We want to go to a more stable conference

HH: THIS IS NEW! I AM INTRIGUED BY YOUR IDEAS AND WOULD LIKE TO SUBSCRIBE TO YOUR NEWSLETTER!

mnchiefsguy 10-02-2011 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963351)
Yes, we're all this dense. I'm glad you guys could settle on the stability issue and stomp up and down about that as if it was your original point. Sorry, but your reasoning sure sounded like envy to me. "Everyone else is doing it!"
I look forward to your envy when KU is stuck in the Mountain West when Texas decides to take off and leave them behind.

|Zach| 10-02-2011 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade (Post 7963351)
Sorry, but your reasoning sure sounded like envy to me. "Everyone else is doing it!"
And all of your takes sound like a KU fan trying to rationalize the health of a conference his school is stuck in. It has been like this from the start.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 10:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| (Post 7963363)
And all of your takes sound like a KU fan trying to rationalize the health of a conference his school is stuck in. It has been like this from the start.
I suppose it would sound that way to you. Sorry to have bothered you.

HolyHandgernade 10-02-2011 10:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy (Post 7963362)
I look forward to your envy when KU is stuck in the Mountain West when Texas decides to take off and leave them behind.
I'm sure you do, we'll look forward to that day.

Reaper16 10-02-2011 10:45 PM
****ing Christ, HHG. The Longhorn Network is one of the biggest causes of the instability in the Big 12. Your performance in this thread makes me want to punch a hole in my monitor.


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