2008-2010 Jamaal Charles was different lol

Heard on the radio that Rice is #1 in the NFL in YAC per reception. Yup, even more than Reek. That 36 yarder last week probably helped a lot in that regard. I'm really pumped about this guy's future as a Chief.

It was different. We threw more to Pacheco out of the backfield and did more horizontal shallow crossers than we have in past games.

The script was still fine, they were still on it by the 3rd drive.

To be fair it's all those things and usage, Rice had his highest percentage of snaps on the outside by some measure. I guess that's maybe partly connected to the limited rotation?

No it isn't We asked mvs and Watson and skyy to do very little as pass catchers, so it's not that like they cleaned up their routes or caught the ball better. We made a strategic choice to design the offense around them instead of through them. That is a dramatically different choice than what we saw in Philly and part of that may have been taking what the defense gave us, but I think we were also more creatively finding ways to get the ball to our 3 weapons instread of allowing the defense to funnel everything to the 3 guys we are scheming out. Overall our off script gameplan was excellent.

You'd expect that defenses will again follow more the philly second half model and keep tight on the short game while funneling to Watson/mvs. And good chance we are better at scheming ways to get the ball to our plaumakers anyway instead of accepting that the defense is letting Watson run free.

There's nothing dramatically different. They just flat made less mistakes. These things you're talking about are always there, they just haven't gotten it done as consistently. We saw the offense work as it's designed.

I agree. Not to mention had a lot of designed blocking schemes to give rice just that little extra space to run after the catch. It certainly felt like a very different gameplan.

Definitely different. Skyy was in the slot more and Rice outside more. I expect that to continue and I think that's a better fit for Skyy. Not convinced it will be successful, but it could be. We took advantage of the shorter crossers several times in the game and that opened up the middle a little for our TE's as well. It seemed like we had a more simple game plan which allowed some success. We will see if GB's defense will adjust and if so this should open up some mid to deeper routes.

He is even more explosive after the catch than Tyreek, as crazy as that may sound. I don't remember in my time watching the NFL that I've seen a player with better acceleration after the catch than Rice. It's remarkable to watch.

Are you seriously saying that the Chiefs didn't do a better job of catching the ball on Sunday?

How many drops did they have?

And again, I don't know how many times I have to say it, but you keep ignoring it. It's about execution. That goes beyond drops. Why are you ignoring the fact that the Chiefs had 2 redzone turnovers in the Eagles game, and turnovers have been an issue all year?

This is why I can't stand going back and forth with you. You don't actually listen to anything. You just keep repeating the same shit. I never said this is simply about drops.

Yes, that is exactly my point in bringing up the rotation being cut down.

Guys, those outlets to Pacheco have been available all season long. Mahomes just hasn't taken them often, choosing to wait for someone to clear downfield. Those shallow crossers are not new, it's a staple of Andy's offense.

All of them, even Mahomes just flat executed the offense as it's always been designed a lot better.

That's not to say that there were no new looks, but there's always new window dressing for what are Andy's fundamental concepts.

But arguing that there was some big change in philosophy is wrong. They just flat played better, and took what the defense gave them and didn't shoot themselves in the foot.

Exactly, execution.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but even Andy himself has essentially said that this is the issue.

It damn sure needed cut down

It helps the offense, and most importantly Travis Kelce, more too. Finally another receiver steps up and makes it to where we don't have to fully rely on Trav.

If this continues we're gonna keep scoring

Chiefs really looked like they can make you PAY if Kelce gets too much attention.

A couple more games like this and Kelce's gonna start getting open a lot more because he's not housing 3-yard drag routes.

They'll let him start to get those easy 10-yard catches rather than get burnt by HOT RICE!!!

Just different players in different roles. We haven't run near as many short horizontal crossers as we did yesterday that were the #1 if not only read and the others were ready to block. That was a change. Also, the passes to Pacheco weren't the the outlet or checkdown, they appeared to be the primary. Maybe Andy was force feeding Mahomes a bit so we could see the offense function better taking these easy gains. We also executed much better and the receivers looked much sharper after the catch as well.

Who are the biggest culprits of drops and botched routes and how many targets did they get? They didnt make mistakes because we didn't give them opportunities to.

I am not ignoring the 2 red zone drops vs philly. You say it's not about drops and yet keep driving this narrative to just clean up a few mistakes and we're golden. No. We were stuck against philly the second half. We missed opportunities in the red zone but also had a ton missed given how our defense gifted our offense field position and frequent possessions all night.

It isn't just about drops and execution. We found a way to get the ball more to our plaumakers who aren't part of the execution problem in ways we couldn't in prior weeks even when we forced ourself to. Kelce has been blanketed in many games and it's not because he can't execute. Mahomes has been stuck often and it isn't because of this overblown narrative that he's just refuses to check down. Rashee was often well covered last week but this week found opportunities against a good defense.

Don't think this was overblown, particularly on some 3rd and Mediums and he would throw deep. I think Andy forced some short easy gain plays on Mahomes so he understands that it can be successful. Everyone executed better on Sunday, from catching to blocking, to running after the catch. It will be interesting to see how we do Sunday night with Moore/Ritchie in the Slot and Rice more outside.

Mahomes was coming off guys. He's been REALLY struggling with that all season.

He'd lock in on Kelce and just not get to the 2nd read in time. Or he'd lock in on Watson. He just hasn't been playing on time most of the season.

On Sunday he did. R1, R2, R3 - scramble. He was running the offense at a much higher level than he has most of the year. It was just much more disciplined and much closer to the level he played at last season.

Rice is a first ballot hall of famer if he retires tomorrow

Turnovers dipshit. Turnovers.

You are literally too stupid to argue with.

So jsut to be clear, this would fall under execution, right?

Those wheel routes worked great before. Wonder why they got away from them? Seems like Pacheco with a full head of steam built up when he gets the ball would be a dangerous weapon. Will defenders stick their head in there to stop him?

They run them a dozen times every game. Mahomes just wasn't looking to go there.

Do you guys look at the play besides the ball?

Absolutely - I'm not arguing; I'm expounding.

Another thought regarding the WRBC nonsense - our WRs are really 'niche' guys. They have very specific skill-sets and it seems the team uses them in those specific roles.

Those rotations may somewhat telegraph what it is we're doing - could be part of the reason why seemingly simple defenses (Denver being the most obvious example) have given us fits. They know that when the see "WR Package 4" that they're gonna get a limited set of routes and likely what they'll be. If it's WRP2, that's Y set of routes, etc...

That's pure conjecture, but given that one of Andy's biggest strengths are tendency breakers, to have routes specific to packages and then call those packages to run those routes would really blunt that ability to break tendencies, no?

Just a theory. Perhaps it's born of necessity but it didn't seem like we were nearly as bad about that last year. Maybe we were and the league caught up a bit?

But if Rice can get outside and stay outside most of the time, that's a fixed point. With Kelce and Rice as fixed points for the others to orbit around, that's going to create more ability to be varied despite the personnel grouping. MVS is presumptively another one who's likely to be out there 60+% of the time. But if Toney, Hardman or {sigh} Moore can get to where they can be put out there for 60-70% of the snaps - or shit, Watson for that matter - you really could get back to the tendency breakers and concepts that may be simpler but at least aren't as telegraphed?

Right.

He'd just stay locked on his first and occasionally second read. He never really got underneath. The underneath routes were thrown when they were really early in the progression or they weren't thrown at all.

Oh I know you weren't arguing, and I knew what your answer would be. That was for zilla, who seems to think I'm only talking about drops when I clearly said execution.

It was almost like Andy was force feeding a few of these as the normal 2nd and 3rd reads as the primary option. It seemed like it kind of hit the reset button for Mahomes and we got back in rhythm...

You mean flat routes with Pacheco? A wheel route would be Pacheco going to the flat like a typical route and then turning it up the field for a 20 yard pass. I can definitely see us adding those wrinkles in as well.

Are you seriously this incapable of carrying a normal conversation where you throw insults like a 2 year old? And I'm the one incapable of conversation....

youre pointing to 2 key mistakes. 1 in the second half in an otherwise very challenging and stuck offense that couldn't move despite frequent possessions and field position. You claim it's not about drops as if you're not trying to have us look away from our overall struggles over multiple games to move offensively off script because we had a few opportunities sprinkled in we didn't hit on.

Dude, what do you expect when you say rz "drops" when I've made it very clear that I'm talking about rz turnovers?

And stop pretending that turnovers were just an issue in that game. They've been an issue all ****ing season, and in particular in each of our losses.

But those 2 "'mistakes" were at least 6 points off the board, possibly 14. Those mistakes were the biggest mistakes of the game. Why are you downplaying them?

We locked on to the same playmakers all day. It wasn't just about going through his progressions and spreading targets. It's because the same playmakers who have been blanketed for several weeks were suddenly finding opportunities. Mvs/skyy/Watson were complete afterthoughts on the offense.

The same Kelce who was blanketed with triple coverage for weeks. The same rice who really wasn't popping open vs philly. It's not like we were hitting Pacheco on all checkdowns. We were intentionally getting the ball to these guys and creating space for him. That designed screen to rashee was chefs kiss. We still locked on to the same guys but we made it work this time

So I disagree. I think our offense creared opportunities to get the ball to our best guys and found ways to mask our worst. Now, does that solve everything? I think we've unlocked something. But you'd have to think more defenses will subscribe to what philly did which is to sell out on our plaumakers and funnel everything to our bottom guys.

LMAO

I like how you ask a question, you get answers, and you shut them all down.

Why ask the question if you have all the answers?

You're completely full of shit.

Makes sense, maybe people are talking at cross purposes a bit here.

Because some people want to have discussion unlike you who blatantly sugarcoats everything then throws a tantrum of insults when anyone doesn't totally and completely align with you.

Lots of good discussion here. Overall I think hawkeyechief raises some good points which is somewhere between where I'm at and DJ is at. We executed better but it was also way better intentional design and strategy

It was?

OK, we have had 19 turnovers this year and 11 of those were in the last 5-6 games and to that leading the league in dropped passes (I have seen the number vary from 21-30 dropped passes) you can clearly see staylor's points. Coaches and players have both stated they need to execute better... how can you discount this?

The rotation being shorter is a factor here as well. Clearly the script and coaching changed something to make it better but they players still had to "execute" the plan which is something that has been lacking most of the season.

I thought it was
Better WR rotations and way less of them
Really good use of the screen game especially on the outside. With real good blocking.
Way more intentional targets to Pacheco and especially rashee
Way more of a power offense even than what we used last year
Much better to hide our bottom 3 WRs who did a fine job blocking
Way better gameplanning off script

Remains to be seen how defenses adjust. But for the raiders it was about as good of a gameplan as we've seen all year

Because I think it speaks volumes when the guys making the lions share of those mistakes, which includes missed routes, are not one of our big 3 playmakers (Pacheco/kelce/rashee). When you phase out your bottom 3 playmakers as passing targets the team as a whole is going to make less mistakes.

And it's not because we were too dumb to figure out that we should be feeding Kelce and rice. Thats realky hard when defenses are blanketing these guys. Weve tried to push the ball to them in the past but had some challenges. We had a plan that creatively and very deliberately gave them opportunities to get the ball, and then got the blocking to move the ball when they got it. Is that sustainable? I don't know. At some point you'll need games where everything funnels to the bottom 3 and those guys gotta make plays. But for Sunday it worked beautifully

There's no great change in design of anything. The Pacheco passes in the flat have been there all year long, Patrick was looking elsewhere. All of this stuff is Andy Reid 101, we just haven't executed it cleanly. It's all been there. It's clear that you don't go back and watch afterwards.

They literally just made fewer mistakes.

As for the smaller rotation, we can all hope that stays, but reality is, we were down two guys and had one guy back from the IR all season. So yeah, smaller rotation. I agree that's probably helpful in getting things in synch.

But that's it really. There weren't like...a bunch of new route concepts or anything.

THIS!!!! I can't tell you how many times I have watched Patrick refuse to even look at Pacheco when he was open in the flat. It was frustrating, but it looks like Patrick fixed that... we will definitely see Sunday night!

Sometimes I wonder Patrick hurting his ankle actually forced him to rely on those underneath reads and be more quick and precise from the pocket than he had been to end the regular season.

It’s like how some bands will literally force themselves into 1960’s studios to rely on their talent to carry them over today’s production resources.

Or maybe I’m looking too far into it.

But we haven't before revolved an entire gameplan around drags and screens. We aren't talking about checkdowns. We're talking about a full blown gameplan where we are scripting plays to rice and Pacheco and even Kelce.

This was the most scripted offense we've seen all year by a mile. Even Kelce who's one of the smartest "WRs" in the game looked like he was running on script. And maybe that's unlocking something. Our WRs will make less mistakes if you tell them exactly where to be. But is that sustainable? Does this make it easier to gameplan us or is this just a back to basics to where we dial it up a notch eventually.

That is way different. They went from complex to Sesame Street simple, and there’s pluses and minuses on if that works

I don't think you understand what 'scripted' means.

I agree, they looked like they knew what they were doing! That's how it is supposed to be.

They looked like that for about half the Charger game. They've looked like it for a drive or two here and there.

That's the first time they have looked like that for three quarters.

Doesn't mean they were running a different scheme. It's the same staple stuff that exploits the defensive rules of coverage. They just executed. Andy called a great game, Patrick took what was there and didn't force things, and Rice and Kelce were dialed in. It's really just that simple. There were some more screens than prior weeks, but drag routes is what we DO, man.

Now, let's make it a habit.

When I say scripted I’m talking about predetermined routes and even dialing kelce and mahomes back to where they’re predetermining a lot of the play. And maybe they’re on to something. Or it’s just a building block. But they simplified the offense tremendously which helps the offense execute, but it also could become easier to scheme against. That is a very different approach from previous games. That strategy certainly changed this week.

I think it’s good if it means back to basics. But can we sustain this level of simplicity in the stretch run? We will see. I personally want to see us leverage the brains of mahomes and kelce.

The thing is, though-you don't want to have a discussion. You want confirmation bias.

You had decided quite on your own, that KC had done a lot of very different things last week.

Most of us have said-nah, it's the same route concepts and stuff, they just played better.

No, that can't be it, you insist.

But it is. Rice and Kelce particularly got it together in the second quarter and played great. But it's the same stuff we always do, because it works as long as you execute it.

We still had MVS running deep routes primarily. Watson mostly, too. Rice and Moore mostly either taking WR screen type plays at the line or drags across the formation while Kelce drifts into the seams. It's the same stuff we always do. They just did it better.

The only play I hadn't seen before was the reverse flea-flicker thing. There ya go! Now THAT was different.

Of course, when the pitch happened, I yelled -OH SHIT WHAT THE ****!

Followed closely by- YAAAAAAS!!!

LOL.

Alright, Andy. That was cute. Let's not make a habit of THAT, lol.

They just got in a groove, man. That's all. They didn't script 40 plays. You couldn't.

They got a good feel for where to go with the ball, and how to attack the coverage rules, and the players executed.

I don't know, but I ****ing love that kid.

He's the definition of a 'DAWG'.

Like maybe there are less post snap options than before for them?

sure, maybe. No way to know that.

There had been talk about getting back to fundamentals, so maybe so.

That's got nothing to do with scripted, though, and the WR screens and stuff we do all the time. Hell, MOST of Rice's catches have been almost that exact play.

Who is “most of us”? because it’s largely been the same guys on the other side of the debate. Just because everyone last week was on the side of our WRs sucking doesn’t mean it’s true because “most of us” saw it that way.

We saw this game very differently.

Well no offense, man, but I'm not entirely sure you know what you're looking at most of the time.

He was calling Rice a "band-aid" not too long ago, as if he's a veteran stop gap and temporary solution.

He clearly doesn't.

Yeah, I certainly hope not. I don't know about you, but I'm hoping Rice is a foundational piece of the next several Super Bowl runs.

I'm hoping he's HIM.

I'm hoping he's Deandre Hopkins, but a 23 year old, cost controlled for four years Hopkins.

I think we were asking every player to play within structure. Kelce has made a killing reading the defense and making route adjustments, and he and mahomes have become an elite tandem because they’re always in perfect harmony. They’re the best improvisers in the game by a mile.

But we dialed back a lot of that. Mostly because when WRs can’t be trusted to make route adjustments it becomes a bit chaotic, especially for a qb like mahomes who wants his WRs to see the field the way he does. We asked our WRs to do way less. It kind of seemed like we asked mahomes to go through a specific progression and do it quickly, versus wait for a guy like kelce to break to the spot you know will open up. And you know what… maybe that breaks some of mahomes’ habit of locking onto guys sometimes. But We went from phd to Sesame Street. And maybe that’s long term sustainable, I don’t know, especially since our offense can be asked to do a lot less this year. But that to me felt very different.

We made a deliberate adjustment

Go **** yourself with that bullshit

I’ve been complimentary of rice from the jump and have remained that way. You’re making shit up. I still believe we need another weapon since we’re probably not going to fully unleash everything on him his rookie year. But yes I believe he’s a bandaid that for this year can get our offense to a level that supports a great all around team

Anybody who’s discussed with me in earnest knows I’m very high on the kid

Rice, a dynamic young Z in the draft, Gabe Davis in FA.

That becomes a REALLY good wide receiver corps by the end of the '24 season if we get the draft pick right.

So you didn't call Rice a band-aid?

Maybe choose better words? Not my fault.

Wow.

While pumping Ross's tires no less.

That's not a great take...

"Good enough bandaid" but he's totally "high on the kid"!

Yes, I said he’s a bandaid that can cover up some of our limitations and get us to the good enough level we need to be this year. That is a bandaid until we fully expand his role (probably next year) and get him the WR help this offseason most of us believe is needed.

I’ve never even remotely suggested he was some temp throwaway solution.

I don't think you know what the word band-aid implies. That or you're playing stupid and backtracking.

Even using it how you just did still doesn't sound like a huge endorsement.

.

Nobody reasonable would interpret what I said as an insult to rice.

I hated the pic.

But, I am actually a big Rice fan now.

I was just saying that not all players get better, so admonishing people for not trusting he could get better shouldn't apply here.

I thought Rice definitely needed to work on not drifting into defenders in the zone, and he seems to be working on it.

And it's frustrating that Reid doesn't seem to know how to use him. I will never understand Skyy out wide with Rice in the slot when they are on the field together.

Also, his burst and get off is elite. He is the perfect receiver for running slants to move the chains, and for drag routes and crossers because he can separate from man coverage quickly.

Until this week, he had only caught like 3 or 4 slants all year, and he had two of the biggest plays on drag route. They work, and I don't know why Reid doesn't see that Rice could eat up defense that way.

But, to the point of Skyy developing, it is Rice's development this year that may be the most condemning thing for Skyy Moore.

Moore may be a fringe NFL player in a less complicated offensive scheme, but in this offense he doesn't look like he belongs in the league. Obviously, the Chiefs and Reid, who clearly knows more about football than anyone on this board, think he is a player, so we will all continue to suffer his suck.

Who the hell is pumping Ross’s tires. Jesus. Find me a single post where Ive pumped the dude up. I mentioned his name because I didn't see potential of anyone else to fit an "x/y" mold. Except Ross who I've said from the very beginning was a long shot

Dude, I literally posted the definition of the word in the context you used it, and you doubled down on it.

Again, not my fault that you're using words incorrectly, if that's your excuse. You won't even simply say that though.

There's literally no way for you to know at all about any of that unless you say in the meetings and game install.

Please watch some Tyreek highlights.

I agree that Rice has an elite burst, but Hill did and still does accelerate faster than any player in the NFL, and possibly in the history of the NFL. Tyreek Hill is one of, if not THE twitchiest fast twitch athlete in the world.

But he really wants it to be true, so it must be!

Holy ****ing reerun.

The guy has been as productive as jsut about any rookie WR, and Reid "doesn't know how to use him"?

Straight up, you're a butt****ing moron dude.

What he does is shift the argument constantly rather than just admit maybe he's wrong.

But he doesn't understand schemes or coverages.

It's like just be a fan and be happy.

If you want to get in the deep end of the pool, do some homework.

NO DOUBT !!:thumb:

What is an "x/y mold", exactly?

You are not. There are computer auto tune musicians and then there are "REAL MUSICIANS"! Like stevieray and Meck;)

I'm re-watching the game, by the way, on NFL Network. they're about to score TD2.

The biggest difference I see is that Mahomes is going through his reads quick and getting the ball out. They're in rhythm. He just made the incredible throw to Kelce. Previous play was a nice gainer to Pacheco in the flat. It's read 1, read 2, Pacheco in the flat.

Make them come up and stop that easy 10. Then bang! Kelce down the seam.

It's the same stuff, they're just doing with much crisper execution.

Oh, so now we play this game after listening to months of people ripping into mahomes left and right because of how we interpreted his playcalls and progressions.

Dude, the only game being played here is an argument game you love playing.

I hate to tell you, but other than the flea flicker (which just happened on my screen), nah, it's the usual stuff. Mahomes is much more decisive and willing to dump it to the back in the flat-which is enormously helpful, because it forces the defense to have to cover that, which means they're not as ready to cover deep. And the guys are playing crisp all over the field. Rice and Kelce in particular.

It's great, it's extremely encouraging, but it's not really different. It's the same concepts.

you've just decided it's different, even though you cannot show any proof, and what you do offer as examples aren't different at all than what they usually do.

So no, man.

Did they simplify things? Quite possibly. We have no way of knowing. Declaring it as a fact is dumb. It's the same concepts they've run for years. There's NOTHING you can point to and say-THERE. THAT RIGHT THERE. THAT'S NEW. Unless it's the flea flicker. If you want to hang your hat on that, okay.

Andy called a great three quarters, Mahomes was decisive, the guys did their jobs in a crisp manner with fewer mistakes. Period.

If only Burnt Fleeced had drafted him