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-   -   Chiefs *****The Skyy Moore Thread***** (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=343627)

louie aguiar 11-14-2022 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 16603306)
There is no hand waiving going. The facts are that this is arguably the deepest WR room in the league right now. And Justin Watson, the 5th WR on the depth chart, had a connection with Patrick from the get go. Patrick himself even said as much when he called Veach and asked about him.

Skyy is a rookie that’s made rookie mistakes. Pretty sure he doesn’t have Patrick’s trust like some veterans. The SF INT is a good example of him losing trust. But he’s not getting more reps. Christian Watson made countless **** up’s and lost his QB’s trust but gained it back last night with experience. We need to see if Skyy will do the same as he gets experience.

Even as a baseline the Chiefs drafted this guy based on team fit and future expectations. He wasn’t drafted to be Tyreek Hill. He was fighting for the 4th WR spot behind MVS, Juju and Hardman the day he stepped foot at camp.

And FFS people need to quit getting pissed at him for his ST’s mistakes. It’s in no way his fault. It’s Toub and Andy’s fault for putting him out there. The kid has zero experience as a returner and they just put him out there bc he had good hands in college. That’s the definition of asinine. And of course people hate the kid for it.
Muffing punts isn’t his fault? Really?

ToxSocks 11-14-2022 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razaele (Post 16603108)
Moore dominated at the collegiate level against lesser competition.
Like **** he did.

I got too much going on today to debate this the way i want. But, no, he did not. The tape don't lie.

Again, im not OUT on Moore by any means. I think he's talented and will contribute to this offense.

But some of these arguments need to just be put to bed. They were wrong then, and they're even more wrong now.

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEX (Post 16603367)
Exactly! SHOW SOMETHING and you'll get touches.
The interception was just so bad.

It's a simple dig route. It's the shit you learn in high school. And it was schemed up to get him the ball.

And he botched it. If you can't run that route when it's called expressly for you and there's a dedicated clear out coming from the back side, you don't belong on the field.

htismaqe 11-14-2022 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603366)
At the same time, a pick's 'value' is 4 years. From that point on, he's just another contract on the books.

If you torch 1/4 of that value on a 2nd rounder who's presently sitting 6th on the depth chart, that means something.
Not saying it doesn't. But once again, it doesn't look like there's any room for a middle ground. You either hate the pick or you love it. You either must hate him or you're making excuses.

The polarization that happens here is just maddening sometimes.

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by louie aguiar (Post 16603368)
Muffing punts isn’t his fault? Really?
Not hand-waiving...

O.city 11-14-2022 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603366)
At the same time, a pick's 'value' is 4 years. From that point on, he's just another contract on the books.

If you torch 1/4 of that value on a 2nd rounder who's presently sitting 6th on the depth chart, that means something.
This is one of the things not talked about as much.

Ok, so Moore will take some seasoning and time to learn here. Fine, I don't think that's wrong or whatever, he came from a small school etc.

But you've got 4 cheap years. You essentially torch one for a redshirt year for a guy that's a bit physically limited compared to some other guys. So say he takes his year and then hits his theoretical ceiling. Is that a player you look at extending?

With the high floor lower ceiling, I think you could argue probably not. So then you've burned a top 60 pick on a guy you are getting 3 years out of. That doesn't scream great value.

Alot of this is projecting for sure.

Eleazar 11-14-2022 10:20 AM
Toney slotting right in and contributing in the space of two weeks makes the defense of Moore a lot more difficult. And you wonder if the Toney deal would have ever happened if Moore had shown flashes. A second and a third are a lot to spend on the lower half of our WR depth chart in just six months, and the guy they bring around also is a return guy?

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxing (Post 16603371)
Like **** he did.

I got too much going on today to debate this the way i want. But, no, he did not. The tape don't lie.

Again, im not OUT on Moore by any means. I think he's talented and will contribute to this offense.

But some of these arguments need to just be put to bed. They were wrong then, and they're even more wrong now.
Yep.

Kid got the overwhelming majority of his production on 2 routes against MAC competition and suddenly he was 'dominant' because he was catching quick-hitters and running through future salesmen.

As we've said 100 times now, it's not that he'll never be able to play in this league - he might be a productive player someday. It's that he simply wasn't a 2nd round prospect under any reasonable metric.

He's a fairly fungible mid/late 2nd day talent. That's all he ever was. Yet "how did he fall to us at 54?!?" was some odd consensus development 'round here...

htismaqe 11-14-2022 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16603382)
This is one of the things not talked about as much.

Ok, so Moore will take some seasoning and time to learn here. Fine, I don't think that's wrong or whatever, he came from a small school etc.

But you've got 4 cheap years. You essentially torch one for a redshirt year for a guy that's a bit physically limited compared to some other guys. So say he takes his year and then hits his theoretical ceiling. Is that a player you look at extending?

With the high floor lower ceiling, I think you could argue probably not. So then you've burned a top 60 pick on a guy you are getting 3 years out of. That doesn't scream great value.

Alot of this is projecting for sure.
That's my biggest gripe. We drafted Moore for his "solid production". He was supposed to be high floor. If he truly was high floor, he'd be getting on the field more.

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16603382)
This is one of the things not talked about as much.

Ok, so Moore will take some seasoning and time to learn here. Fine, I don't think that's wrong or whatever, he came from a small school etc.

But you've got 4 cheap years. You essentially torch one for a redshirt year for a guy that's a bit physically limited compared to some other guys. So say he takes his year and then hits his theoretical ceiling. Is that a player you look at extending?

With the high floor lower ceiling, I think you could argue probably not. So then you've burned a top 60 pick on a guy you are getting 3 years out of. That doesn't scream great value.

Alot of this is projecting for sure.
Look at Khalen Saunders. Drafted in the mid-80s and by the time he's a FA we'll get one good season out of him.

Ultimately that's an okay return on the pick. Especially if his time here makes it easier for us to retain him. And Moore could absolutely end on a similar track - but the cost is still substantially higher at 54 than 84. Especially when there was badly needed DL help available to us and that help is contributing in big ways right now.

Eleazar 11-14-2022 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxing (Post 16603371)
Like **** he did.

I got too much going on today to debate this the way i want. But, no, he did not. The tape don't lie.

Again, im not OUT on Moore by any means. I think he's talented and will contribute to this offense.

But some of these arguments need to just be put to bed. They were wrong then, and they're even more wrong now.
You’re right, dominated is too strong a word. I meant that he piled up stats against inferior competition in ways that won’t translate to the NFL.

dirk digler 11-14-2022 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razaele (Post 16603384)
Toney slotting right in and contributing in the space of two weeks makes the defense of Moore a lot more difficult. And you wonder if the Toney deal would have ever happened if Moore had shown flashes. A second and a third are a lot to spend on the lower half of our WR depth chart in just six months, and the guy they bring around also is a return guy?
Probably true but may also apply to MVS. He hasn't exactly been lighting it up either and probably why they may still want OBJ.

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razaele (Post 16603384)
Toney slotting right in and contributing in the space of two weeks makes the defense of Moore a lot more difficult. And you wonder if the Toney deal would have ever happened if Moore had shown flashes. A second and a third are a lot to spend on the lower half of our WR depth chart in just six months, and the guy they bring around also is a return guy?
I mentioned it at the time of the Toney trade. Someone asked what this says about Moore and the usual suspects of course said "NOTHING!"

My response was "nothing good..."

Because I agree with you - had Moore shown out, it's less likely we're involved in that Toney conversation because it's just not on the radar. But with Moore gacking punts and being a non-factor on offense, Veach went turning over stones and found Toney.

So I guess it's a good thing in that regard.

I just think the idea that idea that our 2nd round picks struggles had zero bearing on the decision to give up a 3rd round pick for another WR when our top 3 guys are pretty much locked in place is...bizarre. Of course it mattered. It wasn't dispositive, but it was a consideration.

RunKC 11-14-2022 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by louie aguiar (Post 16603368)
Muffing punts isn’t his fault? Really?
No it isn’t. He had zero experience as a returner. Drafting a player with zero experience at a position and then throwing them in there in the pro game is incredibly stupid.

O.city 11-14-2022 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 16603389)
That's my biggest gripe. We drafted Moore for his "solid production". He was supposed to be high floor. If he truly was high floor, he'd be getting on the field more.
I think there's some merit in saying, in regards to high floor/low ceiling terms, it's better to take those high floor swings at positions like LB and C and such.

Take the swings at positions like DE and QB and WR on the high ceiling guys maybe?

I dunno, it's an interesting discussion.

TEX 11-14-2022 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603374)
The interception was just so bad.

It's a simple dig route. It's the shit you learn in high school. And it was schemed up to get him the ball.

And he botched it. If you can't run that route when it's called expressly for you and there's a dedicated clear out coming from the back side, you don't belong on the field.
You just nailed it. Skyy has looked like he does not belong out there on several occasions. I'm not just talking about returning kicks, but that certainly has not helped his confidence.

htismaqe 11-14-2022 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16603407)
I think there's some merit in saying, in regards to high floor/low ceiling terms, it's better to take those high floor swings at positions like LB and C and such.

Take the swings at positions like DE and QB and WR on the high ceiling guys maybe?

I dunno, it's an interesting discussion.
Yeah.

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 16603377)
Not saying it doesn't. But once again, it doesn't look like there's any room for a middle ground. You either hate the pick or you love it. You either must hate him or you're making excuses.

The polarization that happens here is just maddening sometimes.
I feel like the 'haters' ARE operating in the middle ground right now.

"We shouldn't have expected him to contribute" was the growing consensus and when Toney blows that thing to hell, there's just some other excuse.

Meanwhile myself and Detox, who have been the most vocal detractors of the pick, continue to say "hey, there's a path to productivity here even if it's going to be a longer time coming than we would like and it won't have the ceiling many hoped for". That IS the middle ground.

It's a wide enough runway to land a 747 on, frankly. It's so damn nebulous as to mean very little - I don't even like where I find myself here because I feel like I'm mostly stating truisms that are largely devoid of genuine insight.

And yet I 'hate' the guy according to many....

Huh?

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 16603405)
No it isn’t. He had zero experience as a returner. Drafting a player with zero experience at a position and then throwing them in there in the pro game is incredibly stupid.
It's a punt, bro.

Guarantee you the guy has fielded hundreds of punts in practices, not to mention the fact that anybody with that kind of athletic profile is the all-everything guy in high school.

You can't muff punts. That's on the player. Catch the goddamn ball.

htismaqe 11-14-2022 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603417)
I feel like the 'haters' ARE operating in the middle ground right now.

"We shouldn't have expected him to contribute" was the growing consensus and when Toney blows that thing to hell, there's just some other excuse.

Meanwhile myself and Detox, who have been the most vocal detractors of the pick, continue to say "hey, there's a path to productivity here even if it's going to be a longer time coming than we would like and it won't have the ceiling many hoped for". That IS the middle ground.

It's a wide enough runway to land a 747 on, frankly. It's so damn nebulous as to mean very little - I don't even like where I find myself here because I feel like I'm mostly stating truisms that are largely devoid of genuine insight.

And yet I 'hate' the guy according to many....

Huh?
Well, I wasn't talking about you really so there's that. :D

BossChief 11-14-2022 10:33 AM
I see a lot of overreaction to what I perceive as a lesser than anticipated start to a rookie WRs career in a complicated system.

I’d rather have swung for the fences for Pickens, too…but Pickens pff grade for receiving is 63.6 and Skyys is 63.3 and their overall grades are almost identical, too…so both are having rookie struggles.

That said, there have been 4-5 plays that are pretty bad.

O.city 11-14-2022 10:34 AM
Top 60 picks shouldn't need a "redshirt" year. It's to valuable to lose a year of cheap pay on a draft pick.

Anyone think that's way off?

RunKC 11-14-2022 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razaele (Post 16603384)
Toney slotting right in and contributing in the space of two weeks makes the defense of Moore a lot more difficult. And you wonder if the Toney deal would have ever happened if Moore had shown flashes. A second and a third are a lot to spend on the lower half of our WR depth chart in just six months, and the guy they bring around also is a return guy?
The only WR’s on contract next year are MVS, Skyy Moore and Justyn Ross. Trading what is a 4th and 7th rd value pick for Toney and getting 2.5 cheap years+ the 5th year option is a no brainer.

It doesn’t matter if Skyy Moore looks like Jerry Rice. You still trade for Toney

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16603425)
Top 60 picks shouldn't need a "redshirt" year. It's to valuable to lose a year of cheap pay on a draft pick.

Anyone think that's way off?
Depends on the player.

Like you tip-toed around a little, I'm okay with it at high value positions and ESPECIALLY for high ceiling players.

But a red-shirt year on a 2nd rounder who sure appears to have a limited ceiling is no bueno.

Maybe Staylor is right and Moore's actually an X receiver who simply hasn't busted out yet. Because if Moore comes out next year and is running 80+% of the snaps out of the X and putting up numbers in various areas of the field - I'm wrong. I lose that round. Because that's EXACTLY the kind of higher ceiling player I'm okay with a red-shirt on; especially at a high-value position like WR.

But I simply don't see him as that guy. He's a Y long-term, IMO. And I don't see the value there.

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 16603431)
The only WR’s on contract next year are MVS, Skyy Moore and Justyn Ross. Trading what is a 4th and 7th rd value pick for Toney and getting 2.5 cheap years+ the 5th year option is a no brainer.

It doesn’t matter if Skyy Moore looks like Jerry Rice. You still trade for Toney
Think about it practically - do you make the phonecall?

Yes, if the Giants call Veach and that offer is on the table - you still pull the trigger for all the reasons you cited. But Toney's been available since April and we didn't make the move then. And all those same factors existed. And yet the deal wasn't made.

I don't think it's a coincidence at all that suddenly the trade got made after Moore gacked a couple punts (and Toney immediately assumed PR duties) and made as inexcusable a mistake as one could make, leading directly to an INT.

I absolutely think that from a practical standpoint, Moores struggles played a significant role in the trade eventually being executed.

RunKC 11-14-2022 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16603425)
Top 60 picks shouldn't need a "redshirt" year. It's to valuable to lose a year of cheap pay on a draft pick.

Anyone think that's way off?
They aren’t redshirting him.

Since week 4 he’s got 28%, 35%, 30%, 22%, 26% and yesterday 25% of the snaps.

That’s not redshirting

O.city 11-14-2022 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603437)
Depends on the player.

Like you tip-toed around a little, I'm okay with it at high value positions and ESPECIALLY for high ceiling players.

But a red-shirt year on a 2nd rounder who sure appears to have a limited ceiling is no bueno.

Maybe Staylor is right and Moore's actually an X receiver who simply hasn't busted out yet. Because if Moore comes out next year and is running 80+% of the snaps out of the X and putting up numbers in various areas of the field - I'm wrong. I lose that round. Because that's EXACTLY the kind of higher ceiling player I'm okay with a red-shirt on; especially at a high-value position like WR.

But I simply don't see him as that guy. He's a Y long-term, IMO. And I don't see the value there.
Yeah, I just don't see the physical attributes there needed for that, but it wouldn't be the first time that happened.

I could be convinced just because he came from such a small school program, seems to be a smart kid etc.

But man, you just need a certain baseline of physical abilities to accomplish that and with having those I'd think he'd have flashed a little more now.

O.city 11-14-2022 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 16603442)
They aren’t redshirting him.

Since week 4 he’s got 28%, 35%, 30%, 22%, 26% and yesterday 25% of the snaps.

That’s not redshirting
I'm no mathematician but, those numbers don't seem to be going up any.

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 16603442)
They aren’t redshirting him.

Since week 4 he’s got 28%, 35%, 30%, 22%, 26% and yesterday 25% of the snaps.

That’s not redshirting
I'm confused.

Is his lack of production due to a lack of opportunity or not?

New World Order 11-14-2022 10:46 AM
This guy is Breeland Speaksing it so far

dirk digler 11-14-2022 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603441)
Think about it practically - do you make the phonecall?

Yes, if the Giants call Veach and that offer is on the table - you still pull the trigger for all the reasons you cited. But Toney's been available since April and we didn't make the move then. And all those same factors existed. And yet the deal wasn't made.

I don't think it's a coincidence at all that suddenly the trade got made after Moore gacked a couple punts (and Toney immediately assumed PR duties) and made as inexcusable a mistake as one could make, leading directly to an INT.

I absolutely think that from a practical standpoint, Moores struggles played a significant role in the trade eventually being executed.
This offense was lacking a WR play maker as well.

I don't blame Moore for the PR issue, he never was one before and never made sense to me and still doesn't why Hardman isn't our full time PR. He is the 3rd WR on the team and the gadget guy. I put that shit on Toub and his lack luster ST's this year.

RunKC 11-14-2022 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603441)
Think about it practically - do you make the phonecall?

Yes, if the Giants call Veach and that offer is on the table - you still pull the trigger for all the reasons you cited. But Toney's been available since April and we didn't make the move then. And all those same factors existed. And yet the deal wasn't made.

I don't think it's a coincidence at all that suddenly the trade got made after Moore gacked a couple punts (and Toney immediately assumed PR duties) and made as inexcusable a mistake as one could make, leading directly to an INT.

I absolutely think that from a practical standpoint, Moores struggles played a significant role in the trade eventually being executed.
I think Moore’s adjustment had a factor but they confirmed that Veach was poking around about Toney in the off-season.

Again I don’t care if Skyy Moore looks like Jerry Rice. Toney is a perfect fit for this system, a top 20 player from his draft class, has 2.5 years of rookie salary + a 5th year option and you can get him for a 4th and 7th?!

You pull the trigger on that every time. Regardless.

Comp picks make these trades a rd later than they are. There’s roughly 15 comp picks in each rd starting in rd 3 so we basically traded a 4th and 7th for Toney.

It’s the exact kind of trade you make no matter who is on your roster

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 16603473)
I think Moore’s adjustment had a factor but they confirmed that Veach was poking around about Toney in the off-season.

Again I don’t care if Skyy Moore looks like Jerry Rice. Toney is a perfect fit for this system, a top 20 player from his draft class, has 2.5 years of rookie salary + a 5th year option and you can get him for a 4th and 7th?!

You pull the trigger on that every time. Regardless.

Comp picks make these trades a rd later than they are. There’s roughly 15 comp picks in each rd starting in rd 3 so we basically traded a 4th and 7th for Toney.

It’s the exact kind of trade you make no matter who is on your roster
And again - I don't disagree.

Yet we didn't, when Toney was widely known to be available last spring.

But we DID shortly after Moore effectively took himself out of the 49ers game with a terrible route.

If you're one who doesn't believe in coincidences, you have plenty of support here...

dirk digler 11-14-2022 10:56 AM
Some of his struggles could be confidence as well. You see that with Christian Watson who is on a team with zero WR's and has 14 total receptions but broke out yesterday with 3 TD's. You could just see his confidence growing with each play.

ToxSocks 11-14-2022 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 16603424)
I’d rather have swung for the fences for Pickens, too…but Pickens pff grade for receiving is 63.6 and Skyys is 63.3 and their overall grades are almost identical, too…so both are having rookie struggles.

.
Seriously? Who cares. Why would anyone care about that?

If you can't put on the game and see the difference in the plays these guys are making then you have no business in this conversation.

Why even bring such a silly stat up? One guy can't get any targets, the other guy pushed Chase Claypool off the roster....gimmie a break with that.

RunKC 11-14-2022 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603457)
I'm confused.

Is his lack of production due to a lack of opportunity or not?
I think it’s trust. The mistakes like the one in SF is understandable due to being a rookie but it doesn’t make it different.

You can see the trust Patrick has in Kelce. You see it in Juju. Not as much with MVS as those two.

Justin Watson has more trust then we think. He runs the right routes and doesn’t make mistakes.

Right now is a critical time for this kid though. Juju is gonna be out for 2-3 weeks and his snap count will increase. He needs to show he’s a capable WR that can make the plays we saw in college.

JPH83 11-14-2022 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603360)
He's getting lapped by Justin Watson.

We continue to ignore what's happening for hypothetical 'competition' when Moore's given no indication that he'd pass anyone on a depth chart right now.
Fair. Do I think he should be contributing more, yep. But if the bar we're hoping for is Alec Pierce I don't think we're going to end up hugely disappointed.

Eleazar 11-14-2022 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxing (Post 16603500)
Seriously? Who cares. Why would anyone care about that?

If you can't put on the game and see the difference in the plays these guys are making then you have no business in this conversation.

Why even bring such a silly stat up? One guy can't get any targets, the other guy pushed Chase Claypool off the roster....gimmie a break with that.
Exactly. One guy convinced the team and the front office that he’d supplanted a starter in half a season, the other is trending in the direction of a candidate for the inactive list.

Rainbarrel 11-14-2022 11:49 AM
It's Toney's second season, it's not just a new system

RealSNR 11-14-2022 11:52 AM
The small school thing is overblown. Christian Watson looked like absolute dookie at the beginning of the year and just had himself a damn fine game last night. And last I checked, the FCS is even smaller than whatever the hell Western Michigan is in.

I'm still going to be patient with Moore, and I ain't writing him off like some people are, but my expectations for him have definitely changed, I'll say that.

I had dreams of him being more productive than Hardman one day. Now I'm just hoping he can match Hardman's production in his 2nd or 3rd year.

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbarrel (Post 16603625)
It's Toney's second season, it's not just a new system
Prior to coming to KC he'd played in 12 total football games.

Moore had played in 7.

This is a non-starter of an argument. Toney isn't some experienced veteran and the time he's spent substantially less time in this system than Moore has.
It's not scheme and it's not Andy Reid. If you can play, he'll get you the ball.

Skyy Moore isn't an NFL caliber player right now and that's why he's not getting targets.

Rainbarrel 11-14-2022 12:00 PM
Need a player who's not meeting expectations to root for
Thornhill is no longer in need of rooting for

htismaqe 11-14-2022 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603481)
And again - I don't disagree.

Yet we didn't, when Toney was widely known to be available last spring.

But we DID shortly after Moore effectively took himself out of the 49ers game with a terrible route.

If you're one who doesn't believe in coincidences, you have plenty of support here...
Just read an article that Toney WASN'T available this past spring. Several teams called and were rebuffed by the Giants. They didn't decide to pull the plug on Toney until after the season started.

Rainbarrel 11-14-2022 12:08 PM
I heard Mahomes wanted Watson off the field (Mitch).
It was awhile before he caught a pass again

Hoover 11-14-2022 12:09 PM
I'm fine with Skyy. Just don't let him EVER return kicks. He clearly can't do it.

rydogg58 11-14-2022 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbarrel (Post 16603680)
I heard Mahomes wanted Watson off the field (Mitch).
It was awhile before he caught a pass again
Who are you talking about here?

Best22 11-14-2022 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbarrel (Post 16603680)
I heard Mahomes wanted Watson off the field (Mitch).
It was awhile before he caught a pass again
I thought Brady wanted him off the field

He’s had some nice catches with Mahomes

Chief Pagan 11-14-2022 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16603425)
Top 60 picks shouldn't need a "redshirt" year. It's to valuable to lose a year of cheap pay on a draft pick.

Anyone think that's way off?
KC took Mahomes with pick 10 and redshirted him (except for the meaningless Denver game).

So I guess Andy thinks you are way off?

OKchiefs 11-14-2022 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Pagan (Post 16603749)
KC took Mahomes with pick 10 and redshirted him (except for the meaningless Denver game).

So I guess Andy thinks you are way off?
QB is clearly the exception to that rule, especially when you have Alex Smith playing solid. One QB sees the field in most games, whereas 5 or 6 different WRs may see the field in any given week.

KChiefs1 11-14-2022 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16603209)
I truly see no basis for this argument at all.

I mean Byron Pringle and DeMarcus Robinson pushed themselves past Mecole Hardman on the depth chart. Pringle in particular.

Moore hasn't so much as kept his spot ahead of Justin Watson. He's certainly not ahead of Hardman whereas Pringle and Robinson were.

That's not something you hand-waive from a top 60 pick. This wasn't Noah Gray. Right now Moore has been the least productive WR taken in the first two rounds. He's been less producitve than guys like David Bell, Romeo Doubs and even Khalil Shakir who were taken after him (and Shakir has a tougher depth chart in front of him).

Be patient - fine. But to just continue to say "oh, well this should've been expected" is flat wrong. This is far less than you'd expect from a guy taken at 54. He's not forcing himself into the offense and his biggest contributions are typically mistakes.

That isn't par for the course for a 2nd round pick.

A truly dominating post. Well done. [emoji106]

KChiefs1 11-14-2022 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chieftain (Post 16603219)
Bert can't seem to hit on the WR talent. He overthinks the pick. Imagine Mclaurin and Pickens in this offense over Hardman and Moore.
Add in Jonathan Taylor over MEH.

Megatron96 11-14-2022 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chieftain (Post 16603219)
It sucks to say this but Skyy looks to be another Conley or Albert Wilson type. A rotational receiver that will likely not crack the starting lineup as a regular.
Look at Pacheco. The guy is a rookie in Andy's system and is already the starter. He has been an impact player from day 1.
Hardman in his rookie year showed flashes and made impact plays. I just don't see it with Moore. Eye test tells me he will be a servicable backup.
Bert can't seem to hit on the WR talent. He overthinks the pick. Imagine Mclaurin and Pickens in this offense over Hardman and Moore.
Um, Veach wanted Kadarius last season, just didn't pan out. I think Brett can evaluate WR talent just fine if Kad was on his radar as a 'must-have.'

And I still think Skyy is going to pan out. He needs more work than I originally thought, but just check those clips in the OP; he can damn sure run a route. Just needs to make an adjustment to play wll in the NFL.

I'm curious if anyone's watched the A-22 to see what's really going on with Skyy. i know early in the season he was getting open, Pat just wasn't looking in his direction a lot. Would like to sneak a peek at the A-22 and find out what else has been hampering his success on the field, because he was doing well in preseason and in practice.

Pitt Gorilla 11-14-2022 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16603917)
Um, Veach wanted Kadarius last season, just didn't pan out. I think Brett can evaluate WR talent just fine if Kad was on his radar as a 'must-have.'

And I still think Skyy is going to pan out. He needs more work than I originally thought, but just check those clips in the OP; he can damn sure run a route. Just needs to make an adjustment to play wll in the NFL.

I'm curious if anyone's watched the A-22 to see what's really going on with Skyy. i know early in the season he was getting open, Pat just wasn't looking in his direction a lot. Would like to sneak a peek at the A-22 and find out what else has been hampering his success on the field, because he was doing well in preseason and in practice.
Agreed. Bert has liked Toney from the get-go. We just weren't going to be able to pick him last season. Moore is going to be fine and should see an uptick now with JJSS recovering.

Mecca 11-14-2022 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KChiefs1 (Post 16603806)
Add in Jonathan Taylor over MEH.
Swift would have been a much better fit for us than Taylor if we're being honest.

saphojunkie 11-14-2022 02:11 PM
I like to think we drafted Toney with our 2021 first round pick and traded a 4th and 7th for Orlando Brown. Just helps me sleep better.

DJ's left nut 11-14-2022 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla (Post 16603936)
Agreed. Bert has liked Toney from the get-go. We just weren't going to be able to pick him last season. Moore is going to be fine and should see an uptick now with JJSS recovering.
It'll unquestionably be his biggest opportunity - they occupy similar spaces on the field, IMO.

Different methods, for sure. But you could use similar route combinations.

We need to see something from him.

NJChiefsFan 11-14-2022 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 16603673)
Just read an article that Toney WASN'T available this past spring. Several teams called and were rebuffed by the Giants. They didn't decide to pull the plug on Toney until after the season started.
Yeah I've read similar stuff from the Giants around here. He was one of the few players that weren't on the block this summer. Things changed between him and the staff it seems.

TEX 11-14-2022 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by saphojunkie (Post 16603941)
I like to think we drafted Toney with our 2021 first round pick and traded a 4th and 7th for Orlando Brown. Just helps me sleep better.
:clap::clap::clap:

Pitt Gorilla 11-14-2022 04:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by saphojunkie (Post 16603941)
I like to think we drafted Toney with our 2021 first round pick and traded a 4th and 7th for Orlando Brown. Just helps me sleep better.
So, we don't actually have Nick Bolton on our team?

Shag 11-14-2022 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16603917)
Um, Veach wanted Kadarius last season, just didn't pan out. I think Brett can evaluate WR talent just fine if Kad was on his radar as a 'must-have.'
I think that's a really hard stance to justify, simply by how he played this draft. He traded behind 3 WR-needy teams, and just waited to take whoever was left. Draft with conviction, and go after the guys you want, rather than let other teams make the decision for you.

Chieftain 11-14-2022 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16603917)
Um, Veach wanted Kadarius last season, just didn't pan out. I think Brett can evaluate WR talent just fine if Kad was on his radar as a 'must-have.'

And I still think Skyy is going to pan out. He needs more work than I originally thought, but just check those clips in the OP; he can damn sure run a route. Just needs to make an adjustment to play wll in the NFL.

I'm curious if anyone's watched the A-22 to see what's really going on with Skyy. i know early in the season he was getting open, Pat just wasn't looking in his direction a lot. Would like to sneak a peek at the A-22 and find out what else has been hampering his success on the field, because he was doing well in preseason and in practice.
Well, the Toney pickup was excellent . That's something Bert exceles at, trades. But on draft day, he can't seem to hit on a WR with the pick available to him. No ifs or buts. Guys are available and you pick the wrong player.
I really think he was going to draft Alec Pierce if the Colts queerish gm hadn't gotten in the way..

SuperBowl4 11-14-2022 04:49 PM
:arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow::kc::arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow:

Kiimo 11-14-2022 05:22 PM
On the one hand, I believe in Skyy Moore and he hasn't really been given a chance.


On the other hand watching Christian Watson score three touchdowns in a game yesterday definitely gave me some DK Metcalf feelings.

DRM08 11-14-2022 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiimosabi (Post 16604305)
On the one hand, I believe in Skyy Moore and he hasn't really been given a chance.


On the other hand watching Christian Watson score three touchdowns in a game yesterday definitely gave me some DK Metcalf feelings.
Moore has not helped himself with 2 fumbles on punt returns, one of which arguably cost the team a victory in a 3 point loss. Really hope that Colts game does not come back to bite them in the ass for playoff seeding by the time we finish the regular season.

Imon Yourside 11-14-2022 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiimosabi (Post 16604305)
On the one hand, I believe in Skyy Moore and he hasn't really been given a chance.


On the other hand watching Christian Watson score three touchdowns in a game yesterday definitely gave me some DK Metcalf feelings.
Pickens is the comparison, we took Karlaftis right before Watson went off the board. That being said, I really wanted Watson but we shall see. One game doesn't make him great.

Kiimo 11-14-2022 05:43 PM
Sure sure, Pickens also looks great.

But yeah you never know. Parris Campbell looked like a complete bust for YEARS

Sofa King 11-14-2022 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiimosabi (Post 16604305)
On the one hand, I believe in Skyy Moore and he hasn't really been given a chance.


On the other hand watching Christian Watson score three touchdowns in a game yesterday definitely gave me some DK Metcalf feelings.
Watson has been a bag of swamp ass all year.

Megatron96 11-14-2022 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shag (Post 16604245)
I think that's a really hard stance to justify, simply by how he played this draft. He traded behind 3 WR-needy teams, and just waited to take whoever was left. Draft with conviction, and go after the guys you want, rather than let other teams make the decision for you.
Iirc, the short version is that Veach planned on taking Kadarius with our 30th pick of the 2021 draft, but NYG traded up to get him at 20, or something like that.

Honestly don't know what you mean by "that's really hard to justify . . ." I 'm not justifying anything; literally just telling at it was spoken by Veach, Andy, Clark Hunt and Kadarius himself, in televised pressers. That was always the plan, according to those that make those kinds of decisions, but it fell through when NYG picked him up at 20.

ToxSocks 11-14-2022 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16604359)
Iirc, the short version is that Veach planned on taking Kadarius with our 30th pick of the 2021 draft, but NYG traded up to get him at 20, or something like that.

Honestly don't know what you mean by "that's really hard to justify . . ." I 'm not justifying anything; literally just telling at it was spoken by Veach, Andy, Clark Hunt and Kadarius himself, in televised pressers. That was always the plan, according to those that make those kinds of decisions, but it fell through when NYG picked him up at 20.
Wishful thinking here, but part of me wonders if his issues with the Giants is that he wanted to go to KC all along. Them drafting him put a snag in those plans. I do have to wonder if he had his heart set on KC, and KC set on him....

Sure, i just made all that up. But im rollin' with it!

raybec 4 11-14-2022 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxing (Post 16604367)
Wishful thinking here, but part of me wonders if his issues with the Giants is that he wanted to go to KC all along. Them drafting him put a snag in those plans. I do have to wonder if he had his heart set on KC, and KC set on him....

Sure, i just made all that up. But im rollin' with it!
That's the CP way brother

emaw1979 11-14-2022 06:40 PM
I trust this regime with CB's, LBers and Guards.

I don't trust Veach with drafting WRs. The last three draft classes have been historically good at WR, yet Veach drafted a gadget WR in Hardman and a possible bust in Moore.

Frankly, due to the swing and misses, next year was looking awful at the position for the Chiefs until the Chiefs lucked into trading for Toney (so far, he's exceeded expectations). Maybe they will be fortunate to sign OBJ, so they don't have to worry about the position as much next year if it's a multi-year deal.

Pitt Gorilla 11-14-2022 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiimosabi (Post 16604305)
On the one hand, I believe in Skyy Moore and he hasn't really been given a chance.


On the other hand watching Christian Watson score three touchdowns in a game yesterday definitely gave me some DK Metcalf feelings.
Honestly, that's a great example. Watson had been written off as a "bust" by folks across the board, given his drops etc. Suddenly, he busts out in one game.

Lesson: It's a little early to write the book on ANYONE at this point, including useless-looking bags of shit like Kinnard.

Chief Pagan 11-14-2022 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by emaw1979 (Post 16604408)
I trust this regime with CB's, LBers and Guards.

I don't trust Veach with drafting WRs. The last three draft classes have been historically good at WR, yet Veach drafted a gadget WR in Hardman and a possible bust in Moore.

Frankly, due to the swing and misses, next year was looking awful at the position for the Chiefs until the Chiefs lucked into trading for Toney (so far, he's exceeded expectations). Maybe they will be fortunate to sign OBJ, so they don't have to worry about the position as much next year if it's a multi-year deal.
:harumph:

They sign OBJ to a multi-year deal, I'm still worrying a lot about LT.

BossChief 11-14-2022 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoover (Post 16603684)
I'm fine with Skyy. Just don't let him EVER return kicks. He clearly can't do it.
Honestly, it’s wild we’re even talking about him being terrible returning kicks and punts.

I’d like to hear the legit reasons why they decided to put him back there. Most of us talking about him before the draft snd after said he hadn’t done it before and then bam, we draft him and they say they will work him in as PR and it was questionable. Even back then we could see it coming. Opposing ST coaches are getting him with the oddly rotating kicks. Maybe a practice visit from DC could help.

I guess just wanting to get him the ball in space was a gamble they liked the looks of.

If he’s the kind of player I think he is, he’s going to use these miscues as motivation to work tirelessly on his routes and in 2-3 weeks, he’s going to step into a bigger role and flash his ability to be a weapon on this offense.

-King- 11-14-2022 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 16604508)
Honestly, it’s wild we’re even talking about him being terrible returning kicks and punts.

I’d like to hear the legit reasons why they decided to put him back there. Most of us talking about him before the draft snd after said he hadn’t done it before and then bam, we draft him and they say they will work him in as PR and it was questionable. Even back then we could see it coming. Opposing ST coaches are getting him with the oddly rotating kicks. Maybe a practice visit from DC could help.

I guess just wanting to get him the ball in space was a gamble they liked the looks of.

If he’s the kind of player I think he is, he’s going to use these miscues as motivation to work tirelessly on his routes and in 2-3 weeks, he’s going to step into a bigger role and flash his ability to be a weapon on this offense.
He's going to need some injuries or just flat out terrible play from about 2-3 people for that to happen

raybec 4 11-14-2022 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 16604508)
Honestly, it’s wild we’re even talking about him being terrible returning kicks and punts.

I’d like to hear the legit reasons why they decided to put him back there. Most of us talking about him before the draft snd after said he hadn’t done it before and then bam, we draft him and they say they will work him in as PR and it was questionable. Even back then we could see it coming. Opposing ST coaches are getting him with the oddly rotating kicks. Maybe a practice visit from DC could help.

I guess just wanting to get him the ball in space was a gamble they liked the looks of.

If he’s the kind of player I think he is, he’s going to use these miscues as motivation to work tirelessly on his routes and in 2-3 weeks, he’s going to step into a bigger role and flash his ability to be a weapon on this offense.
You can always be counted on for the most possible sunshine. I don't think he should be written off but man, what do you think will change from week 10 to week 12 or 13?

BossChief 11-15-2022 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxing (Post 16604367)
Wishful thinking here, but part of me wonders if his issues with the Giants is that he wanted to go to KC all along. Them drafting him put a snag in those plans. I do have to wonder if he had his heart set on KC, and KC set on him....

Sure, i just made all that up. But im rollin' with it!
next years trade deadline, we trade for Jameson Williams, then…right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raybec 4 (Post 16604681)
You can always be counted on for the most possible sunshine. I don't think he should be written off but man, what do you think will change from week 10 to week 12 or 13?
Timing with Pat with more opportunities.

He’s a hard working, grounded kid that came from a small school and is still thinking too much out there.

He only dropped 5 passes in 3 years in college and is very quick to get open. I think Pat/Andy make a concentrated effort to get him the ball in the near future to build some confidence in the kid down the stretch and I think he’s going to earn Pats trust during that span.

Tribal Warfare 11-15-2022 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16604359)
Iirc, the short version is that Veach planned on taking Kadarius with our 30th pick of the 2021 draft, but NYG traded up to get him at 20, or something like that.

Honestly don't know what you mean by "that's really hard to justify . . ." I 'm not justifying anything; literally just telling at it was spoken by Veach, Andy, Clark Hunt and Kadarius himself, in televised pressers. That was always the plan, according to those that make those kinds of decisions, but it fell through when NYG picked him up at 20.
The 2021 Draft the Chiefs traded their 1st round pick to the Ravens for Brown.

kevrunner 11-15-2022 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16604359)
Iirc, the short version is that Veach planned on taking Kadarius with our 30th pick of the 2021 draft, but NYG traded up to get him at 20, or something like that.

Honestly don't know what you mean by "that's really hard to justify . . ." I 'm not justifying anything; literally just telling at it was spoken by Veach, Andy, Clark Hunt and Kadarius himself, in televised pressers. That was always the plan, according to those that make those kinds of decisions, but it fell through when NYG picked him up at 20.
The Giants actually traded down, they had the 11th pick, but traded down to the 20th pick with the Bears. But if the Giants didn’t take Toney with the 20th pick, the Jaguars would have taken him at 25.

Regarding Skyy Moore, since he actually never played wide receiver until his freshman year in college (he was recruited as a cornerback but was switched to WR), it’s easily understandable if it takes him a little more time to excel at the NFL level.

chiefzilla1501 11-15-2022 06:42 AM
I mean, we will see where we wind up with skyy. But it will never stop enraging me about how much WR talent was wasted because disgustingly bad franchises blew their wad on WRs this offseason because they thought an elite wr could carry a horrible qb. Maybe the best thing to come of that is these are typically the players to be the first to be disgruntled and want out


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