Numbers are hard, and they take time to look up.

Why do that when I can just blurt out whatever comes to mind?

Strength player

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Rookie leaders in pressures per <a href="https://twitter.com/PFF?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PFF</a><br>Hutchinson/Karlaftis 28<br>Walker 24<br>Ebiketie 21<br>Thibkbeaux 18<br>Thomas 12<br>Jackson 11</p>&mdash; Eric Eager ���� (@ericeager_) <a href="https://twitter.com/ericeager_/status/1592933486360678402?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 16, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Does anyone know if a sack also counts as a pressure? I assume it does.

That Frank Clark sure knows how to coach up them rookies.

Stay down Rocky.

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Yes.

Hurries + Hits + Sacks

The events don't 'compound' - a sack doesn't count as a sack, hit and hurry. Each play is one event.

So while 23 hurries, 4 hits and 1 sack is pretty much the least useful way to possible to rack up 28 pressures, that's still a shitload of pressures and a positive sign.

But as I said (in this thread, I believe), some of those hurries in particular are just kinda stupid. Giving a guy a hurry for coming through on a screen pass when that was the entire point of the exercise is wonky as hell.

Can't believe I found this. This is the definition I was referred to way back in the day when I was an assoc. editor for the Sporting News:

Definitions:

"A Quarterback Sack is awarded to a defender whenever the Quarterback is in possession of the ball behind the LOS and is:

Tackled for a loss of yards, or
Forced out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage to avoid imminent contact, or
Forced to fumble the football irrespective of where the ball goes thereafter. For example, a defender who creates this “strip sack” and the ball is then propelled across the LOS by being batted or kicked, will still receive credit for a QB Sack.
Note: It is possible for the Quarterback to be sacked for a loss of zero (0) yards. However, the ball when re-spotted after the play must clearly have been moved back by at least half the length of the ball as ordinarily observed by the stats crew. The yards lost by Team A in any of the above situations shall be charged as a Team Loss.


A Quarterback Pressure is awarded to a defender who either forces the QB to move off his initial drop back point to avoid contact, contacts the QB in the act of throwing or has the QB in his grasp at the time an Intentional Grounding penalty is called. Only one QB Pressure per play may be awarded to the defense."

This definition appears to indicate that a sack cannot be counted as a QB pressure. It's an "either/or," type of situation.

Once again this board produces some of the worst takes...

Karlaftis has been consistently solid in my view. Doesn't have that twitchy explosiveness which is preventing him from getting sacks but he is all effort out there. Pressures have come by pure effort and overpowering the opposing tackle. He is basically as advertised.

I'm not going back and reading this whole thread, but are we crying about Karlaftis' lack of sacks?

Take time to remember Justin Houston didn't record a sack until 13 weeks into his rookie season. 11 years later he's sitting at 110 career sacks.

This isn't a Skyy Moore type of situation where the dude hasn't shown anything either. He's active out there. He's hustling.

I think George is coming along just fine but I do wonder about your Houston comparison. Didn't they wait to start Houston until later in the season? I don't recall if he got much playing time at all before that. I'll have to go look up those numbers.

According to this, he not only started all 16 games, he played 100% of defensive snaps, the highest snap percentage of his entire career.

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...ll_snap_counts

I guess I was remembering wrong. According to Wikipedia (yeah, they're never wrong :LOL: ):

It is pretty incredible to see that Houston played 12 games prior to getting his first sack.

Yeah, I just remember being frustrated with that coaching staff and for some reason, my brain remembered them not giving Houston enough of a chance. There were a lot of things to be frustrated with that coaching staff but apparently, this was not one.

Edit: Looking at that, it shows he played 16 games but started 10. :spock:

Interesting, looks like you found a contradiction in their data.

His defensive stat line shows him starting 10 of 16. His snap count stat line shows him starting 16 of 16.

The 10 games is probably correct. The opening depth chart from that year had Studebaker as a starting OLB and he logged 5 games as a starter opposite Hali according to their stats.

Yeah, I agree. The snap count line seems to be incorrect. I wonder if his snap counts are incorrect too? I would like to think not but it at least casts some doubt.

It's definitely wrong. Just checked some 'highlights' from the 2011 season and I didn't see him on the field a single time during the season opener against the Bills.

Exactly.
Eye test on George is positive. It's encouraging to see him stay healthy, too. Spags would not trust him to be practically a starter as a rookie if he had nothing to show for. He looks the part. Last three games I watched him more closely and he was constantly hustling and putting pressure on the D Line. I'd rather have a guy like this who plays hard and won't cost you an arm and a leg when his rookie deal is up than some overhyped sack focused edge rusher who takes plays off. In order of where they were picked, McDuffie, George and Cook are ranked as they should. Skyy and Kinnard have been really the two dissapointments in this draft class. Let's hope we are proven wrong with time.

Highlights? Of the 2011 season? ROFL. That's brutal.

Well then maybe that's what I was remembering. Imagine starting Studabaker over Houston. :shake:

Yis. Why I put that word in quotations

LMAO No shit.

"The Right 53"

Houston was really bad about turning the corner when he first started.

I remember everyone being super excited about him and even as early as pre-season games we could see incredible burst and first step quickness. But he was getting to 'half a man' on OTs and....just kept going. He was taking himself out of plays early in his career.

But you could see him improving week over week. Once he learned how to dip those shoulders a bit and power around a corner, it was all over but the crying.

The only issue is I'm not sure there is something like that that George can "learn" that will get him there. I love the kid and the fact that he doesn't take plays off. He's just not as physically gifted as Houston was. If he had a little more bend to him he'd have several sacks already IMO

So do you think Karlaftis could have a similar growth spurt given how he's played so far?

Another positive to note about Karlaftis is that he isn't out there making negative plays.

Skyy is directly responsible for like 3 turnovers and at least one busted drive because he let a punt get downed at the 1.

I don't recall ever thinking "Wow, George left a gaping hole where is gap responsibility should have been" or anything of that nature. He's out there flying around, trying to make plays.

George is a smart player and smart players have long careers in this league. Which is why we should be even more excited about the Toney acquisition. That kid plays smarter than he looks. He was very impressive last week. I thought of him as a physical freak who lacked IQ but this guy looked like a taller version of Tyreek out there. He picked up Andy's playbook in two weeks time. We don't lose that game to Buffalo with Toney playing.

I may be in the minority here but I think he is having a great year, hard to explain but the best way would be to say he is a B to B+ for everything, he has looked solid against the run, he has put on a great pass rush causing 10 plus QB to rush their throws for nothing. He puts in 110% effort, if we drafted over again and we had the first pick and had to pick a DE this is the guy I would want. He is also healthy which is really important. Sometimes you can find a guy who has more raw talent but they get hurt all the time. I think this guy is a 8-12 year starter for us.

Of course not - I'm not expecting him to EVER be Justin Houston. No, he's not that level of pure talent. And setting raw talent aside, he's just not that style of player.

See above - no, he's not going to unlock some magic trick like Houston's bend showing up that will suddenly have him exploding forward into an All Pro, IMO.

He's a guy who's going to have to grind. He'll get better at chaining moves or setting guys up. He'll get a little stronger. He'll get more precise and more consistent with his technique. I mean the difference between a good player and a HoFer is literally finishing one extra play/gm. Hell, it's not even that much. Just getting that level of consistency up to where he's a threat to finish the play on 80% of his reps instead of 60% of his reps will yield significant returns over large numbers.

He's a grinder and that's how grinders have to approach it, IMO. You keep doing the work, putting in the effort, racking up the opportunities and eventually the chips fall in your favor.

He ain't Mike McDermott out there going all in in every tournament. He's Joey Knish banking his small scores and winning the long game.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I agree that Karlaftis won't explode into an All-Pro.

What I'm saying is that Houston when 12 games without a sack and suddenly got 3 in one game. Do you see Karlaftis being able to do something like that?

I don't really have an issue with how Karlaftis is playing lately. He did have a small "slump" in like games 2-6 but he's been really good the past few weeks. Just have to turn a few of those pressures into sacks and he'll be fine.

Sure - I mean if Eric Hicks can do it, so can George Karlaftis.

It's a preparation meets opportunity thing. Sooner or later he'll have a game like that if he just keeps pressuring pockets.

But it won't be because he unlocks some specific trait that makes him orders of magnitude better, IMO.

Right.

His improvement depends on him refining and learning new techniques. That won't result in exponential growth but it absolutely can lead to incremental growth.

Higher floor, lower ceiling type of thing.

Maybe; but mostly its a roles/style thing.

He's just not that guy. In many ways he's a more VALUABLE guy if he continues to develop. Or certainly a harder one to find.

Guys who can play really sound football and also contribute 8+ sacks are massively important and are big time force multpliers in their own right. They allow you to do more 'straight up' stuff because you don't have to cover for them like you would a Bruce Irvin sort of guided missile.

I don't know that it's fair to say Karlaftis has a low ceiling - just that his strengths aren't going to be flashy.

Him, CJ and Dunlap are playing really well together right now. I really hope they don't tinker with that trying to get Frank back in the mix.

Makes sense. We really need a fast twitch pass rushing specialist opposite him.

Yeah, Dunlap has been a nice surprise the last few weeks.

He's best case scenario when you're picking around #30.

He's not going to fail, he's probably not a future all-pro. He's already affecting the game in positive ways, he's relentless, he's smart, and he's going to just steadily improve until the sacks start coming.

He has been good. My fear is exactly what King said though. They're hoping to get the Frank Clark that played in San Fran 3 weeks ago but they're more likely to get the Frank Clark that played against the Bucs

Lol, Frank's going right back in there like he never left, until he proves he can't hack it. The idea that Spags would keep him off the field because some fans believe that he'd somehow mess with the chemistry of the DL is ludicrous.

Sooooo.. like 2 years ago then?

Yeah, the can't hack it ship has sailed for old Frank. I don't think it has anything to do with chemistry. It has more to do with Frank taking snaps from a guy who has been playing well when he has been super up and down his entire Chiefs tenure.

All 'm saying is that Chief Fan might not like Frank, and would be more than willing to have him ride the bench, but Spags and Cullen are not of the same opinion. Frank's been playing well in the games that he's played this season, and he's going to go right back to playing his snaps until he proves otherwise.

This coaching staff gives the players every opportunity until they prove they can't hack it. Frank is currently playing with house money because his play has been above average so far. Therefore, he's going to get his snaps.

it's pretty simple stuff.

Mmm, I think the point people are making is they may have given Frank more opportunity than was strictly deserved. To be honest, I'll freely admit I can't stand the turd, but IF he plays like the SF game, cool. If he plays even half as well and just gives other guys a rest, cool. If he goes back to being Frank Clark then that'll be a shame.

When the Chiefs traded up for McDuffie, I was expecting it to be for Jermaine Johnson, and I was a bit disappointed when it wasn't. Don't get me wrong, McDuffie is a stud. And maybe down the road Karlaftis will get his sacks and be the better player. Right now, Johnson has 2.5 sacks, so isn't tearing it up either. I guess, to quote MHM, we'll see.

The times he was free for a sack he was too slow to finish or flat out missed the tackle. George doesn't suck, but he isn't above average either.

Now he's shelling out mid round draft prospect production.


I wanted KC to draft the Cowboys' Sam Williams

I still believe that had Clark not gotten that Safety on Jimmy G, Karlaftis gets it. He was a step slower than Clark on that play.

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Were there 3 or 4 plays total in the highlights?

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All, I see is hopes and dreams he'll get there, but he's a roleplayer not Justin Smith.

Sam Williams was available, and the Chiefs decided to not to select him.

And you've decided this 9 games into his rookie season. :rolleyes:

So he'll end with 8-9 sacks in the regular season. Stop being homers guys

That goes both ways dude. You're being WAY too pessimistic.

If he was a mid round pick I'd be cool with it in the rotation. I'll always monitor Sam Williams career as a comparison like CEH & Jonathan Taylor because he wasn't an unknown commodity.

What I hear is “The Chiefs didn’t draft my guy so I am going to be hyper critical of who was drafted by them”.

So, you're saying that if and when George accumulates 8-9 sacks this season, which would easily make him 2nd or 3rd in terms of sacks for the team by season's end, and give us a projected total of over 60 sacks (probably enough to make KC 1st or 2nd in sacks), that's just not good enough.

:hmmm:

maybe it's me, but I just don't understand this logic.

Plays a shit ton of snaps.

Leads the league in batted passes.

Tied with the #2 overall pick in QB pressures.

Around the football all game long

Apparently = role player.

:facepalm:

If he reached that mark of production it would be a justified 1st round pick and continues that. Especially if Sam Williams produces at the same level, but if Karlaftis stays as is and is just a try hard then it would be disappointing.

Yeah, role player and Sam Williams has equaled or is better with less snaps.

Almost getting there and being a folk hero isn't good enough.

Can you make a post about Karlaftis without mentioning Williams or is this truthfully what it's about?

Enjoy worrying about what Sam Williams is doing while ignoring what George is doing.

We all know the first 9 games of a career is make or break.

It's the age old if you state the problem, what's your solution.

Sam Williams is a Cowboy so he's not a solution.

And that's only if you assume Karlaftis is actually a "problem" in the first place. He's not.

I'm going to chalk this up as this being personal to you because they didn't take your guy and leave it at that. It's really not worth discussing further.

Thing is there is no problem that's been identified. Pass rush isn't really an issue for KC regardless of what Williams is doing for a team I give no ****s about.

He was available.

As I said I want to be proven wrong, but his production isn't there and his athletic profile is limited which is obvious when he had opportunities for "splash" plays

He's not now. Unless you're operating with zero hindsight on Karlaftis. Which makes your point of view even more absurd.

What's the general rule for Dlinemen? 3 years or some shit?

I aint worried about him. I think he's exactly what draft pundits thought he'd be. The Chiefs are getting quality snaps out of him and he's holding his own out there. Nowhere to go but up.

It's not like Tyson Jackson getting blown 5 yards off the LOS every snap his rookie year.

Yeah me too but it is what it is.

Literally the only thing that Sam Williams has more of than George is sacks, so far as I can tell. He only has 5 QB pressures, so while he's gotten a couple more sacks, he's apparently not consistently getting close enough to the QB to even make him move off his spot.

Idk, just don't see how 2 extra sacks (with 8 games to go), but the other guy gets within arm's reach a lot more often, makes the one guy that much better than the other.

Time will tell, but right now I don't see where Sam Williams is the obviously better choice.

Hindsight, I said Sam Williams was a known commodity and I can bring the receipts.

You're operating in hindsight, using stats from this season.

Tribal made up his mind during the draft, when the Chiefs first drafted Karlaftis and didn't draft Sam Williams. It was a failure from that point on. No amount of stats are going to change that.

Exactly. No hindsight.

You wanted Williams in the draft. The instant that DIDN'T happen, you declared the pick of Karlaftis a failure.

Your opinion is noted. And form now on will be summarily ignored. You're in this to bitch about yourself and your own expectations and it has nothing to do with the Chiefs. It's personal.

Don't become hyperbolic, I've said multiple times I want to be proven wrong

Wanting to be proven wrong is like saying "no offense" and then saying something blatantly offensive. You don't want to be proven wrong or you wouldn't be here talking like this.