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And this year his 'replacement' is struggling to get on the field and just ran a route that led directly to a pick.

Oh, and 'will run the right routes and catch the ball' sure sounds a lot like 'he'll take what's blocked' when we drafted CEH.

Sometimes that kind of stuff is just code for "limited ceiling".

Skyy Moore making rookie mistakes in his 7th NFL game is understandable.

Mecole Hardman making the same mistakes in his 3rd year leading to him getting benched for Byron Pringle is a whole different story

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Something interesting to ponder. Andy wanted Juju for 2 years and finally got him. He’s a similar type of WR as TO…big, strong, good athleticism, breaks tackles.

I wonder if Andy felt like he found that guy and didn’t need Pickens bc of that?

JMO but I think Juju is here long term. Andy loves him

Holding onto a 3 season grudge when it's obvious to anyone that's watching that he's developing year over year is likewise inexplicable.

He's not the same player. There's a legit dynamic weapon here and I'd hate to be the team that lets him walk only to see him go all Joe Horn on us.

There are loud tools here - I'm willing to gamble on them.

One of like the only guys from my favorite college team to actually play for the Chiefs...

I think if Pickens had been there when the Chiefs picked after the trade down, Pickens would be a Chief.

I firmly believe they looked at Pickens/Moore/Pierce as similarly graded players and woulda been fine with any of them. Hence why they traded down.

100%

I don't think you risk a trade down behind 3 WR needy teams for a 5th round pick if you have any of those guys rated as notably better than any of the other ones.

I didn't agree with them, but that's absolutely how I think they viewed it.

They shoulda zigged when everyone zagged and just taken the DE staring them in the face.

I think they replaced Watkins w/ JuJu.

They really liked having that physical YAC guy. So much so that they brought him back when it seemed obvious that it was time to move on (and in the end, it was).

I think they'll try to keep JJSS for sure - Andy absolutely wants a guy who can get the ball and run through someone. He clearly has those plays in his play book and hasn't been able to use them for a couple years.

But that's where I get back to what Hardman brings - those routes are FAR more effective when you have someone like Hardman AND MVS out there threatening the safeties. One of those guys and you just roll coverage. With 2 of them, you've gotta pick your poison. You've reached an impossible decision point.

Hardman and Clyde don’t succeed often when they actually have to play their position. The schemes plays like screens and jet sweeps that we saw in SF? They’re great. Running routes downfield and taking a handoff in the backfield looking for the hole?

Those guys just don’t succeed very often doing that.

So again why would you pay either of them 2nd contracts?

The question is gonna be more or less what happens with Brown if this team moves on from him they'll have money to keep most everyone provided they can find a LT in the draft.

CEH is a dime a dozen, Hardman is not, teams value explosive athletes.

Is it fair to assume at this point that you're just trying to piss me off?

I mean, Hardman does, especially this year.

What do you even mean "play their position"?

Hardman won't ever be mistaken for Jerry Rice, but IIRC, you were on board with trading away the best all around WR in his prime the Chiefs have ever had and going with the "depth" approach. Well, Hardman absolutely is imperative in that as we've seen.

{throws hands up}

I just can't even imagine where you're getting this or what point you're trying to make here.

This is just so wrong. And it doesn't even get into the points previously raised regarding unique skill-sets.

You made up your mind on Hardman some time ago - we get it.

I agree here but I don’t think you can keep both Juju and Hardman. Not with the OBJ issue, the DL issue, extending Jones and Sneed, maybe extending Gay and Thornhill.

He seems like a luxury piece that should be replaced in the draft next year. Perhaps with a taller, stronger Calvin Austin

Structure will matter. A LOT.

A Chris Jones extension would help. I think LT will have a smaller number next year than it does this year (either via a LTC or Draft pick).

I haven't looked at WR in the draft - you may be right. But again I have to note that you're talking about yet ANOTHER steep learning curve at the position.

Ultimately Moore's development likely makes the decision for you. But I think to some extent Moore and JJSS are more redundant than Moore and Hardman. They are going to occupy the same spaces (and oftentimes spaces occupied by Travis Kelce).

They do things differently but in the same places on the field. I mean 60% of Moore's routes in college were slants, curls and/or flat routes. That's...high. And it's where JJSS makes a lot of his bones as well.

Moore coming along may make it LESS likely they retain JJSS and more likely they retain Hardman. I think that runs in the face of conventional wisdom but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me.

I don't know - it's all a little odd. They're using JJSS as a boundary player but having him run conventional slot routes. I still haven't quite wrapped my head around how all these pieces are working together.

OBJ issue? Let him walk and get a better one moving up in the draft. There is no issue.

To be fair, I don't think the Chiefs coaching staff grasps it fully yet, either.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;A great learning experience for Skyy on that. Skyy got a wraparound route right there...he got a little too high, and Pat trusts him.&quot; - Coach Reid<br><br>What Andy wants in yellow and what Skyy runs in red. <a href="https://t.co/Q1vyqammud">pic.twitter.com/Q1vyqammud</a></p>&mdash; Zack Eisen (@zackeisen21) <a href="https://twitter.com/zackeisen21/status/1584939469006073856?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 25, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

You can see the depth Hardman is getting and immediately see what Moore was supposed to do.

Reid doesn't run crossers AT each other. Hardman is supposed to draw coverage back so Moore can run underneath it.

Tough look for sure and not an 'improvised' situation. He just ran a shitty route there on a play clearly schemed up for him.

:)

Absolutely.


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Great illustration of Moore’s poorly run route.


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It’s worth pointing out that quote from Andy came on a question about Patrick. For Andy to go out of his way to clarify Skyy had fault for that play felt like a professional call out from Reid (professional since he layered it with praise for Skyy) especially as he could have chalked up the INT to miscommunication. Clarifying Skyy had fault felt like an intentional move there.

Hardman excels when he gets specialty touches that are manufactured for him. Jet sweeps, screens behind the LOS, toss passes behind the LOS.

You guys are acting like he is irreplaceable. So if a team offers him $12 million or more should we pay it?

I mean damn man. There are options with 4.3 speed out there if we don’t wanna pay that much.

One was Calvin Austin who the Steelers drafted on day 3. DJ loved him too

Yeah, don't pay him 12 million a year. No shit.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess he doesn't get near that, but if so, move on.

I'm sorry he pissed in your cheerios

Like I said, I'd give him the deal MVS got.

It's essentially a 1 year, $9 million dollar deal with team options for $9 million and $12 million thereafter.

If necessary, I'd go ahead and effectively lock in the 2nd year and make it a 2 year, $18 million deal w/ an option for a 3rd at $12 million.

He's an extremely young player who has improved here. Throwing that out because he didn't hit the ground at 100 mph (and remember, I have never liked the pick) is just awfully reckless, IMO.

Now if the money doesn't work, it doesn't work. I think JJSS or Hardman is a false choice - we can make that work.

But if it's Hardman or Thornhill? Hmmmmm.....now we're making things tough. I think I'd rather have Thornhill.

But my justifications are similar, both guys offer something that's not as easy to get as is being suggested.

After watching the Jags give Christian Kirk $18 million AAV, I think a WR like Hardman will get more than MVS easily.

Probably around $12-14 million which to me is way too much

Mostly agree with this.

Partly I'm not sure which I'd keep; MVS or Hardman, if I had to make a choice. They're both fast, but Hardman has better change-of-direction (I think). MVS is nearly as fast, but he's a bigger target. But if he can be had for basically the same deal as MVS', then great.

If the choice was Hardman/Thornhill, yeah, I'm definitely with you, keep Thornhill. Thorny is having his best season, and if Veach is as smart as I think he is, he'll do everything within reason to keep Thorny. He'd be difficult to replace. Hardman in that scenario is a nice luxury.

We can't find a speedster for cheap who can run jet sweeps and catch short tosses?

MVS signed after Kirk.

So to whatever extent Kirk re-set the market, MVS has a deal that's within it.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">For my Chiefs fans out there wondering about Skyy Moore as a rookie WR in an Andy Reid offense, here&#39;s a chart with cumulative snaps by receivers in their rookie years. It&#39;s not ALL Reids rookies, but it&#39;s most of the ones you&#39;d want to compare him to. Skyy is Tyreek??!! �� <a href="https://t.co/D6wBQjMMyC">pic.twitter.com/D6wBQjMMyC</a></p>&mdash; Joseph Jefe (@josephjefe) <a href="https://twitter.com/josephjefe/status/1585646355317284867?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 27, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I'm not sure if this makes me feel better or worse about Skyy. You might think that the comparison of the usage to Tyreek Hill is a positive but Tyreek Hill was a running back coming out of college and his route running needed a lot more refining.

Skyy was touted as one of the more polished route runners coming out of this draft class, I understand not rushing a rookie and allowing them to digest the playbook but Skyy from a pure receiving stand point shouldn't require as much coaching from a technical perspective.

FYI still fairly bullish on Skyy, took awhile for Golden Tate to bust out- I like that comparison the best.

Skyy also has 3 vets ahead of him that are playing very well. Not every one of those situations is the same.

But he's still getting snaps, so are you saying he's just not getting the targets because of those 3?

I know this might be shocking to you, but there are only so many targets to go around when you combine those 3 with Kelce and the RBs.

I'm sure he will get more after the bye though. That's typically when rookie WRs start getting more involved.

It's not shocking to me, was just asking for clarification.

This kinda puts to rest the snaps argument, now just need to figure why he isnt' getting more opportunities

Moore has been targeted in 11% of his snaps.

MVS and Hardman come in at 9 and 10%.

Problem is, the area of the field that Moore plays in is the same area as Kelce and JuJu who are getting 16 and 14%.

He isn't on the field that often and he's playing against Mahomes' favorite targets.

Moore is only being targeted around 2x per game.

Skyy came from a school where the defensive looks werent 1/3rd of what hes seeing on game day now. He has to learn the playbook, learn to read defenses on the run and build chemistry with Pat. Its not as simple as plug in an athlete. If he had come from ohio state, alabama or some other school where theres NFLish defenses i'd be more concerned. I personally expect more of an Antonio Brown style entry than Jamaar Chase.

Multiple times this season, I've seen Moore either make a deeper cut or not drive towards the ball when Mahomes is scrambling.

He has to make his cut and then drive forward to keep the defenders from cutting in front of him. I think one of Mahomes' INT was Skyy's fault

This.

We don't need to force Moore out there. We have the best offense in the league so far without Hill. Moore will get his big chance next year once he learns.

In Tyreek’s first 7 games he had 19 catches for 223 yards and 4TDs.

My big concern with Skyy this season is that if he keeps making mistakes Andy will refuse to play him. On punts he should be benched, but when he’s called out as the reason Patrick throws and INT it becomes even more likely to be an issue.

THe latest one was Moore's 'fault.' He needed to cut hard left once he was even with that DB and basically run down that yard line, instead he arced deep and allowed the safety to make the play. It's a typical rookie mistake, we've seen rooks make that same mistake forever.

The one against the Bills was on Mahomes. Pat was late finding Moore, imo. He should've thrown to Moore when he was between the hashes, when that defender had no chance to make a play on the ball. But Pat was looking downfield on that play, and just came back to Moore late.

The NFL is a sink or swim league, I understand that Skyy comes from the MAC which isn't going to have the same game speed or coaching as the SEC but you don't have to go very far to show other small school receivers who showed a lot more than Skyy has early on in their careers. This doesn't mean that Skyy is a bust, doesn't mean that he can't be a valuable receiver for the Chiefs but it is fair to say that the start of his career has been underwhelming. He hasn't really flashed his talent much at all, and unfortunately he has been a train wreck returning punts (I blame the coaching staff for square peg round hole).

Diontae Johnson from Toledo, Cooper Kupp from Eastern Washington, Darnell Mooney from Tulane are all examples of small school receivers who flashed and earned playing time in their rookie seasons.

There is still a ton of runway on Moore's career for him to get going, but it's not unfair to say that Skyy has been a little disappointing. I think for me personally, it would go a long way if he flashed a bit especially in the redzone where I think the Chiefs have a bit of a deficiency. Kelce is a monster, Juju and Fortson are formidable but Hardman and MVS lose a little bit of their effectiveness when we can't take the top off. I think Moore can shine in the redzone as the season goes on. Moore doesn't need to have a monster season but the attributes that led him to be drafted in the second round have to shine here and there.

Antonio Brown was a 6th round pick, taking a bit to get up to speed for a player from Central Michigan was absolutely acceptable. I'd suggest next time KC maybe doesn't take a small school player that isn't ready to contribute in the 2nd round. But I'll take a step back and see if he's ready for a larger role after the bye. By the start of December he ideally SHOULD start seeing a consistent 5-7 targets a game and 3-4 catches a game. Spread that over a full season at around 11-12 ypc and you have a 600 yard receiver. I think that is a perfectly reasonable expectation come December.

I don’t disagree that we all want him to be more ready as a second rounder. But I have to trust the staff. We may look back and say” wow skyy and mecole this bunch can’t draft a wr to save their life.” But I think it’s way too early to panic.

Hopefully Toney can immediately take over as PR allowing Skyy to concentrate SOLELY on being WR4 and polish his skills there.

Pat said he wanted to throw it earlier but Milano was in the lane , I would have just curved it around him .

YES!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Chiefs will move away from Skyy Moore as their exclusive punt returner. Dave Toub said he would be part of rotation. Said Kadarius Toney could get some work there on Sunday night against Titans.</p>&mdash; Adam Teicher (@adamteicher) <a href="https://twitter.com/adamteicher/status/1588211842383593474?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 3, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Why is he even considered to be in the rotation though?

So it's going to be PRBC? That sounds...odd.

Why are they using a rotation at all? Just find a new punt returner. Hell, Hardman can do it.

By rotating them, you're just putting more pressure on them every time they are back there.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a>: Dave Toub says Skyy Moore needs more confidence but also needs to get more reps in games. <br><br>“we’re not giving up on him.” - Toub</p>&mdash; McKenzie Nelson (@McKenzieMNelson) <a href="https://twitter.com/McKenzieMNelson/status/1588212065549918208?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 3, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

skyy can field a punt when we're up 21

How late in the game we talking?

Hopefully they find one and stick to them. Maybe Toub is just talking shit but it's just silly to "rotate" them. I think one guy needs to get a feel for what the coverage teams are trying to do and go with it.

Exactly. Maybe they rotate them game to game. That would be fine. But rotating them play to play is just absurd.

With the Chiefs offense being as good as it is......just don't put anyone back there. Let them punt and down it wherever.

The biggest goal when a team is punting aka, giving you the ball back, is let them do it.

LMAO

skyy is going to make a few big plays for this team down the stretch and you'll be fapping to him again

yes let's ignore 100 years of football history that says it's a good idea to return a punt :LOL:

I don't imagine they'll rotate them at all. I think Toub is just trying to say the right thing. Moore will be in the rotation to the extent of a back up returner. He'll come in if Toney is injured or tired.

I've never fapped to him or given up on him. I didn't expect much from him this year besides getting his feet wet and don't really expect much out of him beyond being a reliable guy that's going to get quick separation off the line for an easy 7 yard first down. A lot of guys have made themselves into very nice receivers in that role.

But mother**** him and punt returns.

Yeah, very relevant.

They need to draft a returner. As in someone who did it a lot in college. They’ve got lots of day 3 picks. Use one of that player.

Skyy and Toney did not play that role hardly at all in college

I just hate burning a roster spot on a guy just to return punts. But we've lost so much on it this year, it may be worth it.

What? No they don't. There is literally no reason to draft a person just for punt returns on this team. Just get someone who can catch the ball and get Toub to stop telling them to be aggressive. There's literally no reason why our guys should be catching punts inside the 5-10 yard line the number of times they do.

Catch the ball, run upfield, don't try to do anything special. Use both hands CEH style to protect the ball if you have to. That's all we need. The offense will take it from there.

Let him work on it this offseason if you're bound and determined to turn him into a returner. Try again next year.

But not now. And **** NO in the playoffs.

We never drafted him to be a returner in the first freakin place.

you'll be fapping when toney houses one

The goal is to get the ball to the offense. We don't need any ST's TD's. Just don't **** it up.

Very difficult thing to do. Looking way up for the ball, then back down at players coming to hit you. That’s not counting conditions like wind, sun, cold etc.

It’s not an easy job, especially for a rookie who rarely if ever did it in college. Best way to learn is to get game experience

We can't compare Skyy's production to those other WR's because those other guys were on teams that had no one else. Skyy is blocked and it didn't matter how good he looked in practice or in his very limited opportunities to play, he was never going to get more than 30% of the snaps in any game unless someone got injured.

Diontae Johnson was on a team that had JJSS, who missed 4 games, and James Washington was the leading receiver with 735 yds. No other WR had over 72 yds.

Cooper Kupp only had to fight for snaps with Robert Woods, who missed 4 games, and Sammy Watkins. No other WR had over 104 yds.

Darnell Mooney had Allen Robinson and Anthony Miller as the only other WR that were over 132 yds receiving.

No rookie WR for an Andy Reid team is going to be taking snaps from veteran WR that are playing even just average. Moore has 3 of those guys in front of him right now. He's the number 4 WR on this team and that was never going to change barring injury. If we do have one of those 3 guys ahead if him miss a few games and he's still not producing much of anything, then yeah you could be disappointed.

Skyy Moore's season is next year. That's when we will be able to judge him fairly and if he's not on the field next year, then that will be a huge sign that he's not good.

So I think to say he's been disappointing isn't fair at all when it comes to him being a WR (he's been God awful with punts).

Remember how Mitch Holthus reminded us constantly of Dustin Colquitt being left-footed and how that would put a weird spin on the ball that would screw up returners from time to time if they weren't careful?

This most recent Skyy punt fumble was... some kind of weird kick. It was almost like it hit an imaginary brick wall and dropped like a rock too far in front of where Moore was judging it to go.

What I'm saying is we need to bring back Dustin Colquitt so our returners can get familiar with those weird types of kicks and then they won't screw up in a game!

Bring back Colquitt!!!!!!!111

You don't need a specialized punt returner. That's just ridiculous. That's a waste of a roster spot.

Toney was all-sec as a returner his SR year. He averaged 12.6 yards per punt return and had a TD.

Honestly barring injuries he should not be returning any more punts this year. He will probably be fine doing it long term but I fear he will deal with confidence issues doing it. Plus we always run the risk he muffs another one at the wrong time potentially costing us another game. He can field punts in practice the rest of the season and take over next year if we lose Toney/Hardman.