That’s exactly who I compared him to.

People said the exact same thing about Hali. Hindsight is an interesting thing.

Given his history, I wouldn't give him big bucks regardless. However, the answer to your question is no.

I’m pretty sure there 40 times were fairly close IIRC

The question becomes...

Do you have KPass gain weight to play on the inside or do you have him she’d about 20 lbs and play DE?

He's 289 lbs and fast for that size.

I don't think you need to make any physical changes. He's big enough to play inside, and quick enough to play outside.

Now, technique-wise, there's lots of room for improvement.

Physically, he's a freak; I look forward to seeing if Spags can bring out the best in him. He's kind of Michael Strahan in measurables.

I wouldnt tag Dee Ford or resign him, tell him thanks for the good season and also thanks for ****ing us out of a super bowl. Use that money for something else

Hell yes. Kick him out the door.

I thought Olivier always played WDE when spags was in NY. I dont think i've ever seen him drop.

I forgot the sparingly part of this, but Houston is much better in coverage than Vernon.

Either way, I think the most likely scenario is he plays LEO and we tag and trade Ford.

That was before Speaks put on a few pounds...

Dumb considering the numbers he put up this season and the fact he's a former 1st round draft pick. Tag and trade is the wiser decision. Get SOMETHING for the guy.

Lol wut?

Speaks hasn’t put on weight since the combine.

if you tag him and nobody offers much then you're screwed and stuck paying him 15 million

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The last play of our season features Speaks getting manhandled by Gronk. :(

K-pass gets wham blocked to open up the other side of the hole - doesn't seem like much he could do.

Ragland gets taken out of the play by the FB and Hitchens gets pushed out of the play by a guard (I think) who shoots through the line.

One of Ragland, Speaks or Hitchens beats his man there and at least we put them in 3rd down. Ragland and Hitchens just played passive and let blockers eat them up all year for the most part. Hopefully better coaching will turn that around.

Feel like that’s something that you have to feel out this week at the Super Bowl, at the combine... talk to teams. See what Ford’s trade market might be.

They won’t tag him blindly without knowing if he’s going to be tradeable.

Oops meant to give you a thumbs up.

exactly,

If the Chiefs intend to tag and trade Ford, they are already talking to teams who may be interested. I suspect they will have a deal in place before the new league year officially opens for business.
Pass rushers of Fords caliber and age rarely become available. I think we will be surprised at what a team will be willing to give up to get him.
Think about it, we picked Dee in the first round and it took him five years to get to this level. So, a team could use its first rounder on an edge rusher and may have to wait years for this kind of production, OR use it on Ford and have him step in immediately!!
I think we will know in early March how this is going to go.

Speaks is NOT slower than Hali.

He's absolutely slower than rookie Hali.

Why the hell would you do that? You'd nothing in return. Tag and trade; now, you get some value in return for saying, "Well, bye."

Breeland Speaks combine 40: 4.87

Tamba Hali combine 40: 4.87

:rolleyes:

Until he signs you can remove the offer. Most players get pissed off for awhile before they consider signing it.

you know...tell me something. Do you make every decision in your entire life based on an emotional reaction without any thought to strategy or consequences, or is it just how you look at your favorite football team? I'm curious.

Oh sweet summer child....

Eye test on the field = no ****ing way. No one ever said early career Tamba was slow. Speaks looks slow. Maybe he's just not as quick or something.

ROFL

So did Andy Reid, when they drafted him.

I doubt he'll get pissed off. He knows it's coming.

Personally, if I'm his agent, I'm talking to Veach and finding out where they want to trade him. If he is for sure going to be traded, then you have him sign it so the deal can go through. Otherwise, the Chiefs won't want him to sign it, and they will let him walk in free agency and collect what should end up being a third round comp pick.

I'm sure both sides will be in communication -- it's in both their best interest for Dee Ford to not actually play on a franchise tag this year.

What he signs it before you can deal him? Stuck with a 15 mil cap hit for a dufus that is far from a complete player. He's not worth 15 mil at all.

Emmitt Thomas is back on chiefs coaching page

Would you extend and restructure Sammy?

Trading him might be hard with a 21 million dollar cap hit in 2020

Most guys don't sign until WELL into the FA period.

Of the last 10 franchise players to sign contracts after being tagged. From what I can tell two signed in March, 2 in April, 2 in May and the rest in July.

The only guy to sign his tender within a few days of being tagged was Justin Tucker. He's a freaking kicker.

Dee Ford isn't going to sign before they know whether or not somebody wants him. To let him walk for nothing is the epitome of stupid takes.

Not seeing Speaks being manhandled. He has outside containment. Comes off the ball, gets a push up field and then everyone to his left just gets blown to the inside.

It also looks like the Chiefs had a very unbalanced line, expecting a run to the right. The safety seemed late getting over and needed to shoot the gap and take on the FB with Ragland

Of course they would, it's the Chiefs. ROFL

ROFL

He most certainly is not.

75% of the draftniks on this board spent a YEAR bitching about the Hali pick. Slow, small, you name it. And when the 3-4 came, it started all over again.

DUDE. you're not understanding how this works.

Of course he'll sign it, the trade depends on it. Otherwise, how could you trade him? He ain't yours.

You guys that hate Speaks don't like him because A) you wanted to draft someone else in that spot or B) he looked like shit trying to cover RB's in the flat.

A) yeah well, whatever. and B) No shit. he's 275 ****ing pounds. The **** was Sutton thinking? It's almost like he said, " You know what, **** you then. I'll put that sonofabitch in coverage. that'll show ya."

I don't hate Speaks but I hated the pick at the time. He had no business playing 3-4 OLB. It will be nice to see what he can do when he's put in better situations.

What was Sutton thinking.....really? It was Veach and Reid that said Speaks would be an OLB in this defense. Sutton merely played him where he was told.
Speaks was either a big mistake or Veach drafted him for the change in defense. I think Speaks could and probably will have much more impact as a DE in the 4-3.

I wish we could see the first domino fall already here. I feel like it’s Houston or Ford—one stays, one goes. Probably Ford because he’s got the trade value.

It just makes too much sense given the cap situation and lack of back end talent. You’ve still got Jones as your best pass rusher so it’s not like it becomes a bad unit by any means. I just hope they can find ways to effectively use the cap space that will be created in such a scenario. We need a lot more talent at the 2nd and 3rd levels.

yup.
If they can move money around to lower Houston's cap hit, either converting it to signing bonus, or extending or what have you and get it down to a reasonable amount, I'm all for keeping him.

I mean; Jones and Houston next to each other on the weakside in a one gap 4-3 under is pretty dope.

BUT-we need multiple guys and you can't just do it with a draft. of our big 3 defensive contracts, I just don't see how you can rebuild this defense keeping two of the three. ONE maybe.

well, I don't see how Andy and Veach were planning on him being in coverage on RB's. This is something that bothered me about Sutton-he takes whoever, with whatever skillset, and forces them into his scheme whether it fits or not. Speaks or Kpass in coverage is stupid. Nelson 1 on 1 with no safety help down the sideline is stupid. But he would line them up that way, week in and week out. It just made no sense.

Nate Taylor is convinced Ford is staying, so maybe that “trade” everyone is hoping for is a mirage.

I really wish there was a way to get out of the Berry mess. That contract is handcuffing the roster big time.

I read that article—I wouldn’t put too much stock into his thoughts there. He also said he figured Bailey would be back while only citing his 6 sacks and 10 QB hits as the reasoning.

yeah, man. We can't keep all these high paid players and still get new ones.

Taylor usually has a pretty decent idea so I wouldn’t dismiss it

Eh maybe but that article didn’t give me any reason to feel that way. He only cited stats and age really for why he thought they’d keep Ford.

What would you expect him to say?

“Andy told me they’re going to keep him”

You read his Q and A? He elaborates more in there.

Ford is an asset right now for two reasons: He is cost controlled on the tag ($15-16 million for one year). The Chiefs can trot out their most productive pass rusher and give him one year to prove he can flourish in a 4-3. He did it in college. The second reason that I believe a lot of fans are “hoping” for is that Ford fetches a solid trade offer on the tag. I have my doubts the Chiefs get any offers of a 1st, but more likely a 2nd round pick +. I’m doubtful you match Ford’s production without either having to use your 1st round pick on an edge defender, or trying to bring in a guy like Brandon Graham short term, or maybe Ziggy Ansah. Problem is you are still spending big money on players that have a track record, but are older, less productive and new to the team. Ford is a devil the Chiefs know.

The bigger issue is what to do with Berry/Houston. There really is nothing the Chiefs can do about Berry. I still think Houston is a good player that can succeed within the scheme change, but without a restructure of his deal, there will be no room for him. All three likely cannot be on the roster at the same time moving forward. Houston appears the most likely to be the odd man out. Ford is younger, cheaper, and offers the ability for the Chiefs to be able to draft positions around him. Ford leaves? You are having to draft his replacement immediately with likely your top pick. Risky proposition.

Sounds like speculation, just as we do here. At least he understands the options.

I’m not sure I’d trade Ford for a 2. It would need to be a 1.

The key to today’s defense is pass rush and turnovers.

Ford provides both.

We don’t win the division without his forced fumbles in big games.

If his back is not an issue anymore, he’s gonna have a streak of big years like this one.

Lots of people mad at him (rightfully so) for the NE game, but have forgotten how many huge plays the guy gave us this year.

Well, no, because I highly doubt Andy even talks to him about that stuff personally. He might have a source or two in the FO that could lead him to believe that, but he never really says anything to suggest that either.

Everything he said is just him looking at the facts of the situation and connecting dots in his mind. Where I think he is wrong is that he apparently views Ford as an all world edge player, and I’m not sure Veach will feel the same way. He will see him as a solid all around player, not just the star speed rusher.

Doesn’t mean they won’t keep him, I just don’t think Taylor is hinting at any sourced knowledge that he has.

Really? Given the injury history, low ceiling, single dimension of play and slow development, I'd take a mid to low 2 in heartbeat.

I also think it’s a stretch to call Ford ‘cost controlled’ on Taylor’s part. $16M on the cap is far from cheap.

And you know he’s gone after this year either way. They aren’t going to tag him this year and then give him the big contract at age 29 when they have other people to pay big money to.

Yup.

Ford drives me up the wall sometimes with the offsides and run defend whiffs, but nobody can deny that he had a major impact this past season and was a “bright spot” on a pretty dim defense.

I don’t see teams lining up offering a 1st round pick to make Ford a long term commitment when this draft has both quality and quantity at Edge rusher throughout the 1st round and into the 2nd...

It is cost-controlled from the standpoint that the Chiefs are in WIN-NOW MODE.

Do you drop one of the league’s best pass rushers for a lotto ticket (draft pick) when your Superbowl window is open, but not widening - and not widening because of what you point out: Jones, Hill, Mahomes, Fuller are all going to get PAID.

Counterpoint would be the Chiefs have some pretty awful contracts on the books that will be replaced by those you pointed out, but I see what you’re saying.

I just don’t think Veach can afford to keep both Houston and Ford this year unless 50 will rework his contract.

The big roll of the dice is with health too. Neither Ford nor Houston are exactly safe bets to stay on the field for 16 games.

I just wonder if $15M in cap space for one of those two wouldn’t be better used on a couple of new defensive starters at the 2nd or 3rd level.

Odds say that if they both made it through 2018, they won't make it through 2019. One if not both will likely end up back on the bench, and always at the worst time.

Low ceiling?

I'd take a 2nd for Ford in a heartbeat.

Best pass rusher on the team, blah blah blah.

He played in 14 games in 2016, notched 10 sacks, everybody thought he'd turned the corner...and then he missed 10 games in 2017 due to injury.

He had a great year this year but that's all it was - ONE YEAR. If you can get a 2nd for him, let him go. Don't pay him $15M so that he can get hurt again and sit on the bench all year. If they really want him back that bad, just sign him and move the cap hit out.

If you want to call 13 sacks and 7 FF's all-world, be my guest. But know this; that's all were getting. That's it. It doesn't get any better. In fact, if he plays for the Chiefs in 2019, I believe he won't be able to match that production much less exceed it.

If Ford were an elite pass rusher I could see keeping him around. But he's no DT, and I believe we can do better.

No shit. A player of his "caliber" pushing 30? I'll take that 2 yesterday.

He's literally missed HALF of his career in terms of games played vs. games injured.

Yesterday.

How many times did he line up offsides this year, then does it at the worst time in the biggest game for the chiefs in a long time and then still almost lines up offsides in the ****ing pro bowl. The guy is an idiot. Get whatever you can for him do not pay him 15 million. You can say I'm being emotional or whatever but I'd rather have Collins and some vet then Ford for 15 million

I'm trying to find all the stats.

From what I can tell, he's good for like two games EVERY season since his freshman year of college.

I don't have his complete Auburn stats but it looks like he missed 9 or 10 games in 2011 because of his back, 2 more in 2012 because of an abdominal strain, and 2 in 2013 because of a knee injury.

He played in every game for the Chiefs in 2014 as a backup. In 2015, he hurt his back again, missed 2 games and shortly after coming back, hurt his knee, ending his season. It looks like he missed a game in 2016 but I can't figure out for what.

Last year he hurt his back for a 3rd time, missed 2 games, came back, and then went on injured reserve in December (basically the same pattern as 2015).

There's NO WAY I want this guy back with a big cap number after looking at this. If they can't be sure to get a good pick, let him walk. He's a ticking time bomb and with Houston and Berry already having issues, they can't afford this.

Which brings up an interesting way to look at this...

Ford’s tag is estimated to be around $16M. You tag him, that’s $16M gone for a guy who could be a really good pass rusher for us again, but comes with great injury risk and may not fit in with this new defense as well.

If you can trade him, for even just a 2nd round pick, you’ve got an extra 2nd + $16M in space that could very possibly pay for a new starter at safety and someone else in the front 7. Or wherever else you want to pick up a starter at.

So, if I say that you can have either Dee Ford for one season or a 2nd round pick + Landon Collins + Player X (FA mid level starter), what would you do?

Now they could tag Ford and get rid of Houston, leaving about an extra $12M in cap space. But there won’t be a draft pick coming back our way.

I would too man, but I don’t think Andy wants to let him leave next year only to be replaced by Speaks (or a rookie) bc he is thinking Super Bowl or bust.

Ford is an elite pass rusher.

And if he's injured again? Just based on the numbers, the chances of him getting hurt again are pretty high.

I found a fantasy football site that estimates injury probabilities - they had Ford as the 23rd most likely player in the LEAGUE to get injured at the beginning of the season. The over/under was 2.5 games. Think about that for a minute.

He's almost guaranteed to get hurt next year and if you go by his history, consider the year he had this year with the groin and nothing else, there's a good chance it's SEVERAL games.

You're basically saying Andy wants him as insurance against Speaks being a rookie. Who's insurance against Ford?

I’m still laughing at the low ceiling comment.

Dee has a full blown ELITE first step
Dee runs a 4.5 40 yard dash
Dee has a knack for causing turnovers..most notably stripsacks
His PFF grade has improved every year as a pro
He finally had back surgery that seems to have given him new flexibility.
The longer he goes without back issues, the stronger his core strength will grow and the less of a chance his back issues return.

His “CEILING” is a top 5 pass rusher in the NFL.

Speaks is going to be very very good at DE once he drops 15 pounds and converts it to muscle.

Suggs lite

This is exactly my reasoning behind tagging him for a year and then signing him after that.

When you see him on the field, do you see Elite right now?

His ceiling is Derrick Thomas with all that comes with. Put him next to Chris Jones and pull a Neil Smith/Derrick Thomas combo?

It's always a risk to give Big Money to a guy that suddenly shows up on his contract year. A one-trick pony with back problems. His one trick is one of the most valuable tricks in the NFL though. He also isn't the brightest and does some dumb stuff pretty regularly.

Do we keep Houston and Ford? That's a lot of money.

Ford should get dumped. Make Houston take a pay cut or dump him as well. Save the money and find younger, hungry players in FA that will cost less. Their money is killing us as a team. Cut Berry after June 1 and save what you can.

He doesn't need to drop weight.

Go full Patriots. Stop signing big money contracts. If you can get two #1 picks for Chris Jones or Tyreek Hill, take it and save the money to spend on FA. Get out of the cycle of tying up huge dollars when players get hurt all the time. Mahomes will get his money, no one else can get $20 million per year. Get the best coaches money can buy and build the roster from the bottom up.