So much this. I wish people understood this more.

they have the gravertous to pull that off with any player.

Yes please

How about the WR Version of Reek

fyp

I think Veach just pulled of the steal of the trading season. I'd agree that the NY media can be pretty tough on players and the Meadowlands isn't Arrowhead. A little tutelage under PMII, Kelce, Jones, and Andy might be all the kid needs.

I have to admit. I wasn't convinced this guy would amount to anything more than Josh Gordon status. But you can see his ability everytime he touches the ball. He really jumps off the screen.

Well next time i hope you listen. With all due respect.

From the interviews I've seen of him, the kid is pretty thrilled to be with Coach Reid and Mahomes. It doesn't hurt to have a guy like Kelce as well to make Toney's job easier as a WR.

It has been very impressive how quickly Toney has started making an impact on the field for this team, especially when we look at Skyy Moore struggling in a big way. Hopefully Toney continues to make those impact plays and become an even bigger part of the offense.

I don't think you can compare Moore's progress to Toney's. Moore's a rookie, probably not used to NFL speed and talent, Toney is. But your point about Kelce helping out is well taken. Has anyone noticed he seems to be calling out coverages to the WRs?

I didn't. I'll look for that on Sunday.

this is shaping up to be a great trade. He showed some things Sunday against the Jags and he hasn't been here long.

But we always hear that it takes forever for WR's to figure out Andy Reid's playbook and so forth. Toney is already making a pretty big impact, much quicker than expected.

We've been over this, Toney isn't some seasoned veteran. Toney has played 13 career games while Skyy is at 8 career games. This has nothing to do with NFL experience and has everything to do with athletic ability. Toney was a 1st round draft pick for a reason, and there's probably a reason Skyy was the 13th receiver taken in the 2022 NFL draft. Toney's 4th career NFL game he exploded onto the scene with his 10 catch, 189 yard performance against the Cowboys.

Moore simply just might not be that good- he still has a chance to develop into a good pro but his expectations have changed. I think most reasonable people thought going into the season that Skyy could be a solid contributor to the offense this season, since he was touted as one of the more polished route runners coming out of the draft. Right now he's at the bottom of the depth chart, ball is in his court to take a massive step forward in development (likely in the off-season).

Also has a good opportunity to see some more reps and passes with the WR core banged up, we'll see.

We have all been saying it for years. If they give you ten yards. Sit and catch n run. Players are copying Travis sitting in the middle of zones. Death by a million catches. Once they go man some of these guys will feast and Pacheco will kill.

Somehow, I don't expect this is going to stay 100% smooth sailing. At some point, something will probably blow up.

Hopefully he is happy enough in KC to manage it.

Andy and company do have a pretty good track record.

It is clear they are doing everything they can to get him the ball and take advantage of his talent.

Yea, but he is talented enough to force him the ball.

I think between his talent and the importance of getting him off to a good start just to keep his head on straight...

Andy is willing to play him even without knowing the full playbook.

Toney also had college years of going against 4-star and 5-star defensive talent in the SEC, compared to Moore playing college in a weak conference against 2-star type of defensive talent. Toney has more athletic ability for sure, no question. He has benefited from playing in the SEC as well. Just my 2 cents. I'm impressed as hell with how quickly Toney has been able to make an impact, given how we always hear it's so difficult for receivers to figure out Andy Reid's playbook.

My biggest disappointment with Moore so far is those stupid fumbles on the punt returns. That's part of the game that only requires proper concentration. You don't need freakish Tyreek Hill athletic ability to catch a punt. The special teams have been a disaster for this team so far this year. Pretty frustrating when you think about how that stuff was rarely a problem for the Patriots during their 20 year dynasty. They didn't shoot themselves in the foot so much. Belichick would trot out unathletic dudes on special teams who would simply avoid the undisciplined mistakes we are seeing with the Chiefs.

Agree with 98% of this.

The only thing I'll comment on is that from experience, some guys just have trouble tracking punts/kick-offs. I have no idea why. Some guys can track kick-offs but have a hard time with punts. It's just weird, especially if you're one of those that can track them.

There's a few other components, such as setting your feet before the ball is about halfway down the hill, so to speak. Our ST coach in HS got that one from Bill Parcells about 35 years ago, btw. But you're right that mostly it's just about concentration and not hearing footsteps.

Toney didn’t run complicated routes on Sunday. He is just extremely talented. And for some reason the Jags forgot he existed on the play that he scored

Those are called rich people

I read (probably here) that he has been staying at the facilities all night to get the offense down.

Hope not.

I'd be out of a job...

😆

If Moore is one of those guys who visually cannot track a kickoff or punt to save his life, why did the coaches put him in that position? Really bad preparation heading into the season. I hope that Colts loss does not bite them in the ass for playoff seeding. Avoid the fumbled punt in that game and they win it.

Toney said as much in his presser a couple days ago, and so did Pat. Pat said that he arrived at the facility and Toney was already there (Pat usually arrives before any other player during the regular season; he tries to beat Andy but apparently Andy never leaves).

Yeah pretty sure he knows that if he ****s up with Mahomes, that's pretty much it for his career. So he has to be on his best behavior on the field, off the field and online and Mahomes will get his career on track and get him paid on his 2nd contract.

I hope we can agree that even Moore would have scored on that one...

Yip for the effort and I'm not being sarcastic.

But a few all nighters isn't going to catch you up. It's going to be at least a minor liability as far as audibles and the like.

I would have agreed until I saw Moore totally dogging it when he was blocking for Toney. That's strictly an effort problem. If you can't play through the whistle then what the hell can you do?

Well, Skyy wasn't having trouble fielding punts in practice before the season. Plenty of film of him doing fine before the season started. Which is understandable, because no one is trying to take your head off in practice. It's different when it's for real.

Other than that, I honestly don't know.

Toub said in his presser that they were trying to make use of Skyy's running ability. And that Skyy was a project, because he had no real prior experience as a returner so it was always going to take some time. But that there was tremendous upside if they could get him there. That's all paraphrased, of course.

That's all i really know about it.

As for the IND game KC just wasn't very sharp in that one. Their possessions in the game were badly inefficient (3-9 scoring).

With four of those possessions in the second half KC only managed 3 points. It was just a really sloppy game for the Chiefs' offense, and STs.

LMAO

Well the 3 for 9 scoring includes 2 botched Field Goal situations after the offense moved the ball into scoring position. Should have been 5/9 scoring if the Chiefs kicking unit takes care of business. Colts have a good defense. They deserve credit on their end of things. KC Special Teams were a dumpster fire. Chris Jones' penalty at the very end did not help matters.

Ultimately I still think the Moore fumbled punt was pretty huge compared to everything else in that game. It set the tone in a bad way, right out of the gate. They lost the game by 3 points, even with all the other mistakes. That one punt return mistake gift-wrapped 7 points to the Colts. Sure hope that game doesn't cost them the #1 seed for the playoffs.

I never took notice of this until all the Hill stuff once he got traded. We never heard him say anything in Kansas City. Between that and JuJu and possibly now Toney, seems pretty clear that Reid and company make sure players have their trap shut. And that's from a players coach.

It's awfully good practice and a REALLY impressive trick if you can do it simultaneously preaching 'family' and telling guys that they're free to be themselves.

How do you do all that and not sound like something of an authoritarian hypocrite? You need a TON of buy in.

Reid is an impressive cat.

Well, be yourself, but don't embarrass the family.

Exactly. It only works if you have true respect from everyone that matters in the locker room. For him to be able to say hey guys be yourselves I'm not here to micromanage you but also completely lock their wrists up on social media. That takes picking your battles perfectly and being honest and consistent. People don't buy in otherwise.

That's the key to good leadership anywhere. Be truthful but don't be a blunt asshole, hold everyone to the same standards.

Truth. One of my favorite lines as a teacher is to say that kids have varying intelligence but regardless of how smart they are, they all know when you are honest and treat them fairly.

LOL.

You find yourself out of a job, I’ll hire you.

I work in manufacturing. I'm a manager for a mid size facility. The thing young supervisors (and some experienced ones) do wrong a lot of times is mistake acting like a blunt jackass for "just being honest". If an employee is not meeting the standards you can let them know that without degrading them. It builds much better chemistry among you and your employees if you're honest with a little empathy.

Best acquisition the Chiefs made all season! So glad we acquired him! Incredible player! :thumb:

This is the dawning of the age of Kadarius.

Kafka's offense is similar, it's not like Thoney came in with no base for this offense.

There's two avenues that lead to obedience - respect and fear.

Andy practices the former. It works.

Why not both?

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He came in with less than Moore had.

I mean it's not like he was out there running practice reps with his hamstring pull. Nor was his camp the same as the camp Moore went through when they were doing specific installs.

It's just a lousy excuse.

Similar terminology =/= similar offense

What, you don't figure the Jags had our offense all figured out since Doug Pederson was once the OC here?

Surely you're mistaken...

I can see why this kid was a 1rst round pick (albeit Giants). Hops, hands, and quicks, what's not to like? Went for 39 for 420 in 10 games last year with that QB.
Are the Giants rerunned?

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Again Toney wasn’t running complicated routes or anything against the Jags. Jet sweep fake, a jet sweep, a bootleg/cross field 4 yard pass and a go route. He just took those plays and used that unique talent.

It isn’t fair to compare Toney to Skyy. Toney was a legit top 15 player in his draft which included JaMarr Chase, Jaylen Waddle and Devonta Smith.

He’s incredibly talented. Skyy was never that guy.

On this we can agree...

That draft the WR's were way better than this year.

You could say Toney might be more talented than any of the 2022 draft WR's other than Drake London.

The Giants run a tight ship. It's the Patriot Way. No room for a guy like Toney who they apparently couldn't get to buy in to their methodology.

Their GM came from Buffalo where they turned around Buffalo based on culture players.

So maybe Giants will add later but while they are turning things around they aren't going to keep anyone not buying in.

Chris Olave and Garrett Wilson are DAMN good.

He'd have been behind all 3 of those guys, IMO.

ROFL

Right.

I was always a huge Olave guy.

Thought Wilson was good but I liked Toney better coming out.

Time will tell.

And let's be honest. The Buffalo turnaround, like every other turnaround in the NFL, started and ends with Josh Allen at QB.

Daniel Jones is no Josh Allen.

I preferred Wilson; he was my WR1 in this class.

I'd have likely put Toney at WR3 behind Wilson and Olave but ahead of London, but that's because I don't typically put a ton of value on big-bodied possession WRs. I just don't think it's a skill we need right now (we have Kelce for that role).

I have heard that the Buffalo QB board in 2018 was

1.Sam Darnold
2.Josh Allen
3.Mason Rudolph

If they weren't able to trade up for Allen and ended up with Rudolph none of the culture would have mattered.

Exactly.

I had London #1 and Olave #2.

Mahomes would be laughing his ass off if he had Kelce and London at the same time.

First down, first down, first down...

Travis talking about the glove adjustment is hilarious

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When Mahomes is in the 7s House
And JuJu aligns with scores
Then peace will guide the Patrick
And love will steer our stars

THIS IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGE OF KADARIUS
AGE OF KADARIUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS
KADARIUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS
KAD-AR-I-UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS


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****, that's sticking LMAO

there will ABSOLUTELY BE A VIDEO! :shake:ROFL

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Yung Joka

One thing to add to this... on pure athletic ability Toney is just better. His broad jump is 11 inches further and has a 5 inch vertical advantage. He is faster in the 40, short cone, and shuttle.

He could turn out to be "the" guy if he pushes to be better like Tyreek did. He is crazy good right now, if he works on it he will be elite.

KT came in with experience in the SEC and a full year learning NFL concepts and routes in NY and had half a year in a clone of our current offense. Skyy came in with 3 career years (was a RB in HS) of playing WR at a small school and is still adjusting to the mental game at this level and is struggling.

We get it, you hated the pick. So far, you were right (10 games into their careers, most would have said they expected Pickens to look much better than Skyy at this point)….But what you’re not acknowledging is the reasons Pickens fell in the first place. An ACL tear in his right knee last year and various character concerns.

The debate of Skyy vs Pickens won’t be decided till they have both been in the league 2-3 years and those concerns are flushed out.

For all we know, Pickens character concerns are a reason why the Steelers traded Claypool (not saying that’s why they traded him).

If Pickens has no reinjury to the knee and his character concerns are laid to rest as well, there’s a good chance he was the better pick…but if Pickens blows his ACL or gets suspended for character concerns while Skyy consistently improves his mental game while refining his route running…Skyy will end up the better pick,

I still see the kid that Rich Eisen watch at the combine and said “this kid is perfect for KCs offense”.

Because that's what you want to see.

It certainly isn't because of anything he's actually shown.

And again - I don't even bemoan not taking Pickens. I wanted Sam Williams.

But I digress because - Toney thread and I promised 'Maqe.

LMAO That's fantastic! You got skills brooooooo!

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The Giants offense is a clone of ours....

You are a funny guy.

Yeah - barely seemed worthy of response, really.

There are none so blind...

You know I love you bro.

You guys argument that both players career progression should be judged equally at this point is straight up silly.

That's not my argument.

My argument is that Toney's should be judged on a more aggressive timeline because he's simply a far more talented player than Moore.

And we'll just say it's because Toney's really good for the sake of staying on topic...