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Yeah, the entire crux of your argument is that Reid's scheme is so insanely complicated that a mere rookie couldn't possibly hope to contribute and the fact that a converted rookie RB doubled him up yields 'I don't give a **** what he was playing....' Just covering yourself in glory here. |
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...really was a bit over advertised. |
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A month later and he's still not doing anything. Quote:
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Lets just go ahead and pretend he wound up in the 5th round because he was a converted RB. |
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Hill on the other hand produced with limited snaps and then when Maclin got hurt he produced even more, but went back to limited snaps. Hill is just a freak though and there's about <0.0000001% chance of Moore being anything close to Hill. I do think eventually Moore will be a 1000 yd receiver. Also Conley was not more productive than Moore has been. Conley only had 199 yds his rookie year. Conley also had like a 4 game stretch of getting 65-90% of snaps partially because of injury. Conley sucked though, so it's not really a positive that Moore has been more productive lol. JD1020 is taking this very personal lol. |
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These arguments are just plain ****ing stupid. "Look at this guy over here doing these things for this team." Look at the ****ing playing time that is given to rookies in Andy Reids history. Moore is right there along with them. He has 12 targets. He's picking up nearly 17 yards a reception. Would I like more? Of course. But I'm not going to piss on his grave when he simply isn't being called upon but has shown to succeed off the line which is exactly why he was drafted. |
Andy Reid has had about 5 guys in the last ten years he's put this kind of draft capital into among all his skill position players. And every one of them has outproduced Moore.
I just reposted my response to your nonsensical attempts to create a sample size small enough to finally not embarrass Moore and you will just hand waive it AGAIN. Because that's what the Moore Cabal does. |
I would hope we all agree that with the playing time he's seen he could have been far more productive. The comparisons to the rest of his draft class don't matter, they wouldn't see the field here either. I don't think he'll end up as good as some here believe he will be but I also don't think he'll be Chris Conley bad either.
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I’d be content with a fair catch at this point.
Stone hands DBs get asked to return punts. |
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How you see it:
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https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MajorIckyB...restricted.gif Reality: https://i.gifer.com/F88U.gif |
So comparing Hill rookie offensive snap count to Skyy it is dead even at 104 through Game 7.
Targets, Hill had 23 vs Skyy's 12. That is pretty interesting. |
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Bust.
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I am not part of the Skyy cabal but IMHO Skyy would probably have been more productive\impactful earlier in an Alex Smith led offense where the routes were more defined and you ran the route exactly as it was drawn up.
In year 5 of the Mahomes offense that isn't the case. I posted a story about this a few weeks ago and they even talked about it on the broadcast yesterday but the routes the receivers get are just concepts. Mahomes expects you to adjust your route on the fly and if you aren't seeing what he is seeing there is going to be problems. So that is just going to take repetitions and more time to get in sync with Pat. We see this same issue with Hardman all the time. I agree with King that they need to get some easy plays for him to build up his confidence, like some screens etc. I think he will be fine but it maybe closer to the end of the season before he gets going. |
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Have I been surprised by his limited snaps and production, yep, but what I still see is a guy who can separate early and has reliable hands (not on PRs!). The problem I think he'll have for the rest of the year is he does a lot of what JJSS does, and he now seems to be having a resurgence/building some chemistry with Pat. I really hope they scheme him some plays as you say, particularly if we're using a few more screens. He was billed as a YAC guy so lets see that. I know he's been on the field a LOT more but I'm honesty surprised Moore has got the attention of people and nobody's mentioned Karlaftis' incredibly limited impact and production. |
The biggest thing with this offense is whether or not you're in sync with Patrick. Clearly there's a disconnect with Skyy and Patrick right now, despite Skyy having Patrick's trust.
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Have I been surprised by his limited snaps and production, yep, but what I still see is a guy who can separate early and has reliable hands (not on PRs!). The problem I think he'll have for the rest of the year is he does a lot of what JJSS does, and he now seems to be having a resurgence/building some chemistry with Pat. I really hope they scheme him some plays as you say, particularly if we're using a few more screens. He was billed as a YAC guy so lets see that. I know he's been on the field a LOT more but I'm honesty surprised Moore has got the attention of people and nobody's mentioned Karlaftis' incredibly limited impact and production. |
Most rookies don't come in and look great. Never know until like year 3 if they are starters or not.
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If you don't like him because you wanted Pickens, take that up with Veach. Same with Hardman over Metcalf. Drafting WR's doesn't seem to be Veach's strength. |
Speaking of "the next AB," you all DO realize that Pickens is going to ****ing snap AB style, right? Like, it's going to happen.
You keep him festering in Shitsburgh with that god awful QB? Yeah, he's going to snap. Hell, he might have even snapped if he had been in KC with Mahomes, particularly if we're taking a "spread the ball around" approach to our offense for the long term. But hey... at least you got your highlight reel catches! |
For what it's worth, my position has been that if I were hell bent on WR there I'd have taken Pickens.
But who id have preferred is Sam Williams. But hey man, you and Scott Pioli should just form a bowling team and name it 'the right 53' is someone like Pickens is just too risky for your tastes... |
Pierce has looked pretty good in Indy as well, but yeah, Williams is looking more and more like that should have been that pick.
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Pickens is a talented athletic WR who now plays for a franchise known for allowing their WRs to make plays. His production thus far has been pretty good for a rookie who's not starting, and he's made some highlight reel catches and plays. And everybody's acting like the book has already been written. Pickens is teh amazeballs and Skyy Moore is teh sucksballs! It's not that simple. |
With the Chiefs history of drafting WRs. The fact they even draft one above the 4th round is already a win
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I think people who liked Pickens going into the draft are seeing him do exactly the sort of things they thought he was capable of and are chagrined that he's not doing them here. Many of those same people are disappointed in Moore. They're separate inquiries. What's odd to me is the push-back against a real-time analysis of the player. Especially coming from the author of the "Frank Clark ****ing Sucks" thread. For a year or more all you (and I) wanted to do was say "man, Frank Clark is not playing good football" and it was met with awfully similar shrieks to what we're seeing right now w/r/t Moore. Excuses, hand-waiving, unsupported claims regarding role and historical performance. If we've reached a point where someone can't even say "man, Skyy Moore has not helped this team at all through 7 games of the season..." without getting some visceral reaction from a Moore Stan, what are we even doing here? Frank wasn't "doing his job" just as Moore isn't "performing as expected for a Reid rookie WR". Again I ask his supporters, who among you predicted this level of performance coming into the season? And please, show receipts. Because I didn't like the pick and still had him being about twice as productive as he's been to this point. Am I supposed to pretend like it's all been wine and roses with the guy? |
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But that's why I just didn't see the need to grab the 13th WR off the board with a 2nd round pick when we still don't have a DL worth a shit... It just wasn't such a dire need that you go scraping through the leftovers to grab one at/near the top 50 picks. |
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I'm not even predicting Moore is going to have an okay/decentish NFL career. I'm just saying please wait a goddamn minute. And in the meantime, remember when Chase Claypool had that stretch of like 4 games in his rookie year where we all went, "Hoo boy look out" and now that franchise is just counting down the days until his contract runs out. Or they just get impatient and trade his ass. And I don't fault you for wanting to go DE and pointing out the current issues we have there and how we could use a player like Williams. I'm comparing WR to WR only. |
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If only we had drafted George Pickens.
Then we'd have an official George Pickens thread where we are complaining about the fact he's only getting 10 snaps a game... |
Getting kinda old drafting WR's in the 2nd round and having to be so patient with them to do something. Maybe we shouldn't keep doing that?
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As for Pickens - maybe just drop the antenna a bit because I'm not seeing nearly as much Pickens chatter as you're acting like there is here. There have been like a half-dozen references to him and almost all of them in passing. It's not like you're getting complex breakdowns of Pickens route tree vs. Moore's here. We expected Moore than we're getting from Skyy Moore. And to hear Andy toss him directly under the bus in the post-game presser (but in his very Andy sort of 'well that's a teachable moment' sort of way) suggests that things are perhaps not going as smoothly as anyone expected on this front. But fortunately we don't have Aaron Rodgers out there calling him a **** on a hot mic or something. So yes, there's still a decent chance that he becomes a solid player. I again will cite Sterling Shepard as a solid comp. But g'damn folks, he hasn't played well. And the folks that are most ardent in now saying he shouldn't have been expected to were the same folks that were predicting 1,200 yard seasons for him and calling him the #1 receiver in the draft. That's...odd. |
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What I can see with my own eyes though is that the team traded Tyreek Hill and tried to replace his game in multiple different players. MVS with the speed. JuJu with the middle and underneath shit. You can look at the OP in this thread and come to the conclusion that Moore is a guy that was most successful in agility and creating immediate space off the line and running a bunch of short routes. That kind of overlaps with JuJu right now. I never expected him to come out blazing like Randy Moss. He has had very little opportunity to even do anything in this offense so far. I don't even really expect him to be a 1,000 yard receiver. I do expect him to be more productive than Hardman in the long run and be a reliable guy to go to on slants, crosses, screens, (insert name of quick short route here) for a handful of easy cheap yards. |
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Remember the "We have some packages for him we just didn't get to" comment in the Indy game? They're not treating Moore like he's a 4-year veteran and asking him to learn every position. Andy's said as much. And in a game where we could just smile and dial for a first down whenever we wanted it, we STILL didn't get him involved - y'know, except for that time he ran the wrong route and caused a pick. This ain't on Andy, fellas. Reid has absolutely demonstrated a willingness to get skill sets involved early in a player's career. And he's stated a desire to do so with Moore. It just hasn't taken thus far. |
If agreeing with DJ where reflecting on current documented performance labels me as a hater, then we definitely need to take a wait and see approach to Skyy. Oh and **** DJ. (Did i do that correctly)
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It took a while for MVS too. Remember the preseason game vs the Commanders when Patrick missed him and he was wide open? Or the Indy game where that happened again on the first drive. MVS had 3 steps and Patrick overshot him. It takes time dude. I still maintain that Skyy is the replacement for Hardman after this year. I think they want him to be that 4th WR to spot play this year kinda like Justin Watson. |
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Do you really think it’s difficult for a rookie to do that job? |
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Also yea in hindsight taking Moore over Pickens doesn't look like a smart move, you can't win em all I guess. |
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{player shows steady growth in the system} "Why would you pay that guy? He's just a gadget player!" Folks - there are like 8 guys in the league that don't need help from the scheme to get open. Getting yards is getting yards. No, I don't think any ol' swinging dick can do what Hardman does in this offense. |
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And for the record, Hardman's speed is more explosive than MVSs is. MVS does other things better than Hardman but Hardman gets to speed much faster and cuts much cleaner in space. Not sure why he can't do that when he's running routes, but with the ball in his hands, Hardman is a more explosive player than MVS is. |
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Could someone put a spoiler tag on all these videos in the OP possibly? I think everyone has seen them by now.
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I mean, Hardman is probably getting a 10m AAV per year deal just because he caught balls from Mahomes.
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Guys who can do the gadget stuff and be WR’s. Doesn’t seem like that’s Pickens game. I think Andy gets those guys with that skill set specifically for games like the one we just played in SF. The jets sweeps, lining up all over, getting open in space for screens. Could be a detriment to Andy but it’s pretty clear he has a prototype |
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Andy has always had a bit of variety in his receiving group. |
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A) Hardman's foot has clearly been bothering him. B) He was damn good against the Raiders and pretty good against the Chargers despite being obviously limited by the heel. No, I don't think he's going to be a pure X receiver. But I think there's a happy medium. I think there's a version of Hardman that incorporates his usage against the Raiders/Chargers w/ the threat (or actual) use of him like we used him against the 49ers. He's gotten a lot more willing to absorb contact to make the catch. He's gotten a lot better about attacking the ball with his hands to bring it in. And yes, I think he's improved in his route running and his chemistry. He's gotten quite a bit better here. And his physical tools aren't in question. If I could get him signed to the deal we got MVS signed to, I'd give it to him without question. I'd offer it to him now, in fact. That's an opportunity for some real surplus value. Guys with his tools aren't easy to get. I mean set THIS version of him alongside Jameson Williams and tell me what Williams is clearly better at? And he's still only 24 years old. He's all of 3 years older than Williams - there's PLENTY of football in front of him. You want to buy IN to guys like Hardman, not walk away from them. |
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I think he has a preference (Tyreek Hill) but I don't think he's married to any sort of mold. The man's an artist - Give him a tuba and he'll get you something out of it... |
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Did I also mention he can’t block well? If Hardman missed games and Skyy took over for awhile it would be a different story bc Skyy would be the one getting Hardman’s screens and jet sweeps. Hardman is also easy to replace as a gadget player. You loved Calvin Austin in the draft. You really think that guy couldn’t do jet sweeps and screens with his speed? |
I'd love to sign Hardman to a long term deal, maybe just a small amount less than MVS. $8-9 mil/yr. I'd love to use him like the 49ers use Deebo. More runs/jet sweeps.
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Too bad Urban Meyer is a collosal failure as an NFL coach because Hardman would probably rape faces in his H Back role.
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He's absolutely running crossers well right now and he's getting open on seam/out routes as well. He's working well in the large parts of the field. And what are you talking about 'doesn't block well'? I can think of at least 2 key blocks he's made to spring scores already this year. That's another area where he's made enormous strides. He's been, at worst, the 2nd best run blocking receiver on the team this year (MVS has been our best). This is just seeing what you want to see at this point. I mean if you're honestly going to say you've been watching him this year and are gonna throw "and he doesn't block well" in there, then you're just not paying attention. |
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That comment is about as red flag as they come. Someone isn't paying attention. |
Hardman doesn't have that connection with Patrick to just make a move and flatten a route or stretch it and see the same thing Pat does, that's really the biggest detriment he has...
We're so use to seeing it with Kelce and Hill seeing a guy not be able to do it makes us question the issue. |
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Mecole "JET" Hardman doesn't just "do" jet sweeps, he'd downright special at them. He's a damn play maker with the ball in his hands. He's a legitimate threat to go the distance whenever he has the ball. That ALONE makes him special player. He has his warts, sure. I've spent enough time talking about them. But don't let that detract you from the fact that he has some unique, special qualities. |
Can we just give the Punts back to Hardman now, I'm tired of Moore doing them.
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Hardman's speed and slipperiness (yeah, it's a thing) is damn unique. I'm not sure why someone would just hand-waive it. |
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Mahomes over throws Hardman? Mecole ran a bad route or Mecole gave up on the play. Mecole isn't a bad player whatsoever and is the perfect 3rd/4th option on an offense. If this team can bring back a turd like DeMarcus Robinson, then they will have no problem bringing back Mecole. |
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Acting like replacing Mecole is easy is so laughable. Look at DeAnthony Thomas or ****ing Dexter Mccluster. Fast guys that wish they could be even half the player Mecole is.
Mecole gets so much shit, because people are ****ing idiots and have to have a reason to bitch. |
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I think Mecole is just a bit of a goofball. And certainly earlier in his career, he struck me as being emotionally immature. Just a silly ass kid out there. But I feel like we've seen growth there. I think he's taken to additional responsibility and we'll see him continue to grow as a veteran. I don't think he'll ever be a 'lockerroom leader' sort of guy, but I'm also not sure we need that from him. JJSS and MVS weren't early in their careers, that's for sure. I just think there's an opportunity to buy low on a guy who can continue to be a big part of this offense going forward. |
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I asked assistant GM Mike Borgonzi what Skyy Moore brings to Chiefs that they might have lacked at WR: "He's dependable. He's going to run the right route and he's going to catch the ball.''</p>— Adam Teicher (@adamteicher) <a href="https://twitter.com/adamteicher/status/1520216653258272768?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 30, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script> It’s no secret that Mecole has struggled running routes, catching the ball and doing his job well as a WR after 3 years in this system. And yes Borgonzi is absolutely talking about Hardman here aka the guy who got benched for about a month last season and replaced by Pringle both on offense and ST’s. |
I did enjoy JuJu throwing Mike Tomlin under the bus.
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