Cut him? ROFL

Damn right. This mental idiot lost the ****ing AFCCG! No way in hell his sorry ass should come back. Give him 15 Mil of our cap? **** no.

Well forgetting all the tag talk, he's a free agent. You can't cut him. LOL

He put up a lot of sacks, but I'm not 100% convinced you pay him the franchise tag. I think long-term we need to move away from overpaying these broke dicks on D, and they all seem to break down more with age. You guys think Belichick would pay him the franchise number? I kinda doubt it.

You are incomprehensibly stupid.

No, you are. Bringing back all the same bums from this shit defense would be stupid. All his sacks did shit when it mattered. He can't play LB in the 4-3. Can't cover and gets shoved around in run defense. He sucks. But hey, lets tag him.

Ya' daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn right.

No, we are going to tag him, trade him, and THEN let some other dumbass give him a pile of money to **** up.

So you'd rather let him walk for nothing that trade him for a possible 1st or 2nd round pick?

That's just silly.

It's the Dayton Moore strategy.......

Tagged players traded? I can think of 1. Nobdoy is trading for a one trick pony. He's far from a complete player.

Really interesting quote in an article from The Athletic about players not wanting to play in Buffalo:

““With me, it doesn’t come down to the dollar,” said Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Dee Ford, a coveted free-agent-to-be. “I’m all about winning and building something, which is why I hope I’m not going anywhere.

“Even if that doesn’t happen, I’m about winning. It’s more than the money.”

A substantial reason Ford wants to stay in Kansas City is all-intergalactic quarterback Patrick Mahomes.”

Ford indicates that he wants to stay for less money even..

Ford knows he can win a SB then move on to a huge deal somewhere else and ride into the sunset.

He knows a KC SB win is inevitable.

Yeah well, Dee, you see son, that's not up to you. And while we appreciate your sentiment, the fact remains that there are plenty of other, more talented FA's that feel exactly the same as you about being on the winning, ascending team of Mahomey the Mighty. So you're just gonna' have to bide your time whilst we review a few things 'round hea'.

We'll call you.

He's in for a surprise.

Dee Ford is so underappreciated by some fans. Crazy stuff.

I know man. These ****in' Chiefs fans, spoiled little bitches, expecting 1st round picks to perform like 1st round picks. Every season. What the **** are these clowns thinking?

Yeah a lot of fans have no clue what the average mid-low 1st round pick performs like. I see it all the time around here.

I don't know if you are one of them.

Dee wants to stay in KC and will take less money to get it done?

I don't think our two parties agree on how much "less money" he'd need to take in order to keep him playing in Kansas City next year and possibly beyond.

If he's thinking, "I might not get Justin Houston money, but something approaching that would be fine with me," he's going to get laughed out of the building.

If he's thinking, "Well, I mean, the cap has gone up significantly since he signed this deal, so even something like what Tamba Hali signed in his big extension with KC years ago would be okay," he's still thinking too high.

Cut that shit in half, and then we'll talk, Dee. Something like Allen Bailey money. Let's start there. We're fine if you try to negotiate more, but if you find that offer insulting, we're never gonna find our price point, and you may as well start ordering your foam rubber cheesehead right now.

I like the ones that are perpetually injured, riding the pine. Those are the best! Now THAT'S value!

I can guarantee you that's EXACTLY what he's thinking; "just cut a couple/three million off that, and we'll all be good. I AM an OLB, right"?

LMAO

Of course. Most Chiefs fans only know what CHIEFS 1st round picks perform like - you know, like Dee Ford, who FINALLY produced in the 5th freaking year of his contract.

:rolleyes:

Then the Chiefs just rescind the tag. Unless you think he's going to sign it immediately.

Exactly.

Hell, I thought KPass actually looked pretty good in the preseason rushing the passer. He played a 4-3 DE in college and projected as a 4-3 DE in the NFL. I still feel like he can play and hopefully, whatever dog house he was in has vanished with Bob Sutton. I hated Speaks for the 3-4 OLB but I think he fits better as a strong side DE or 3 technique DE in Spags scheme.

DoD and Hitchens fit a 4-3 like a glove.

Ton Foil Hat: Reid had a handshake agreement in place with Spags last off season knowing that this season was Sutton's last year. Spags took a year off to regroup and perfect his schemes for the new NFL. That's why Veach drafted and signed 4-3 players. It's been in the works for over a year.

Tagged players get traded. The Chiefs have been involved with 2. Matt Cassel and Jared Allen. Jarvis Landry was tagged and traded for last off season. It's not uncommon.

And Ford improved tremendously against the run. He's not playing OLB in this system and is an ideal fit for the Weakside DE. He's going to be here next year.

ROFL

It's a bit of a catch 22 though, because you can't trade him until he signs the tag, so you kind of need him to sign it quickly.

In the very unlikely event that they couldn't find a trade partner, they would indeed be stuck with him in all likelihood.

I think you're miss-remembering, he was never vaunted as a run stuffer. He was a decently productive pass rusher on the defensive interior.

You’re way off here. He was a late bloomer that got 7 sacks his final year in the SEC as an interior DL. That’s what got him drafted higher than expected.

I don't think Spagnuolo had any gentlemen's agreement with Reid. I DO think it likely that Reid had decided that interior pass rush was the key to disrupting today's very quick passing game, and a one gap, attacking 4-3 was something he wanted to move to. I think he didn't want to change the GM and then the QB and defense all at once, and so decided with the contracts on hand to play out one last season with the current 3-4 personnel and alignment while he handed the keys to his young QB on offense. He wanted to be able to concentrate on that without concerning himself with the defense for a season. Problem was, the apt pupil was more advanced than anyone imagined, and Mahomes had an MVP season and that tired old defensive scheme bit him in the ass.

But looking at last year's draft it sure looks like they were positioning themselves to move out of the 3-4.

Great post

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

The thing with Ford that’s so tough is that’s he’s just so insanely one dimensional. Granted, he’s among the best in that dimension, but the rest of his game is mostly non existent. He’s a liability of 2/3 downs and an elite player on 1. Is that worth a huge chunk of cap space? It’s a real debate.

This is perhaps the most concise description yet. Perfectly stated.

Aside from the obvious drafting well, I’d like to see us offload talented players we don’t plan on resigning.
Dee Ford is a possibility this year, though I don’t see Andy doing that unfortunately.

I think we need to trade Sammy Watkins after 2019. He simply isn’t worth the money and his value should be worth a 2nd rd pick. Recoup value and get another cheap, young player to replace them.

Pats are great at this. Just did it with Brandin Cooks.

Sammy Watkins is no Brandin Cooks

No one will trade for Watkins’ $21M cap hit next year

yep. We're stuck with that deal. When he's healthy, he's a difference maker.

I think next season, we should draft his replacement.

We need to do the Pats' thing. Reclamation projects on the cheap, solid but aging vets with a little left in the tank to fill spots as stopgaps, and draft solid. No more big contracts unless it's homegrown guys at premium positions that you think you can't replace.

By the way-I think Jones and Hill qualify.

This works but you have to hit on the solid vets or reclamation projects. I got blasted for bring up Amerson and Scandrick but those guys were, are and always will be turds. The fact that the Chiefs get a pass around here for those types of moves that basically helped make an entire position a liability for 4 months is wild to me.

Well, the problem is banking on reclamation projects.

Don't bank on those guys, but you sign them and throw them into the mix and see if they sink or swim.

But say, how about a Chris Long for DE? Proven leader, still had 7 sacks last year, and then pair him with a Jaylon Ferguson in the first? Long's salary was just shy of $3 million last year and ain't going up at 34.

THAT is a Patriots style move. Know what I'm sayin?

Yes thats my argument.... you hafta platoon the vet.

Had they platooned Amerson with a 2nd or 3rd round CB it might not be so bad.

If they platoon Speaks or Kpass with a Chris Long you have all your options covered.

Not really. If you look at the history of the tag, it appears most players negotiate with their team and others until they get a deal, and THEN they sign the tag.

The deadline is July 15th. There have been a TON of tag offers signed on the 14th and 15th over the years.

of course, I say that but still like Landon Collins on a long term deal. But he's 25 and a great player with ties to Spagnuolo.

Read what I said again. He WAS a run-stuffing DE that slid inside.

He never rushed the passer "without his hand in the dirt".

I never said he was a poor pass rusher. I said he'd never played standing up before.

The Chiefs were asking him to do things he'd really never done before.

EXACTLY. In this way, you're less likely to get caught with your pants down if an injury hits, or an aging vet just hits the wall.

Or you have to have backup plans in the draft.

Good teams make the Amerson and Scandrick moves. Some of them actually work out, even for the Chiefs.

The problem is that can't be your ONLY strategy. It has to be multi-faceted. Like Chris said, you can't bank on it. You bank on the draft.

Signing guys like that is more like buying penny stocks.

If the Chiefs intend to tag and trade Ford, they are already talking to teams who may be interested. I suspect they will have a deal in place before the new league year officially opens for business.
Pass rushers of Fords caliber and age rarely become available. I think we will be surprised at what a team will be willing to give up to get him.
Think about it, we picked Dee in the first round and it took him five years to get to this level. So, a team could use its first rounder on an edge rusher and may have to wait years for this kind of production, OR use it on Ford and have him step in immediately!!
I think we will know in early March how this is going to go.

right; so like, somebody like a Chris Long is a perfect stop-gap. team leader, smart player, high motor, good technique, crafty veteran. He's 34, so he's almost out of gas, but he had 7 sacks last season. You pair that with a Jaylon Edwards in the 1st. Now you have plan A and plan B. Young guy learns the ways of the force from the old guy. Long knows he's nearing the end, and might like to add another ring. He made just shy of $3 million last season, with almost the same pass rush production as Houston at $21 million. Win/Win.

this what the Patriots have done for YEARS, with the Rodney Harrison's and Junior Seau types. Once great players with a little left in the tank, plug them in, but draft their replacements at the same time; the kids learn how the legends go about their business and take over when they're ready.

You got blasted because you fail to provide examples of FA/rookie corners that we missed on.

Also, you fail to acknowledge that we upgraded from Amerson, to Scandrick, to Ward, who played as well as anybody we could’ve signed or drafted those last 3 weeks. It clearly wasn’t lost on Veach that we had a hole at corner, hence us trying to sign Kyle Fuller also.

It’s easy to sit there and say they should’ve signed or drafted somebody. Last years free agent and rookie corner classes simply were not very good at all.

The other issue is that the GM can only do so much. He tried to do this exact thing with Berry by both bringing back Parker and bringing in Lucas.

It isn't his fault that Sutton wouldn't get Lucas on the field.

Tag and trade with 1 year left would mean a new deal for Watkins from his new team. Could also tag him the year after and trade.

Both work IMO.

Sammy going no where

If we need cap space after next season we will just walk away from Watkins and save 14 million. We don't need to trade him, and as mentioned, I doubt someone would be interested in that contract. The only people it costs money is Clark. Nothing to really be worried about.

I agree.

Clearly, Sutton was not on the same page as Reid and Veach.

You said “he isn’t a pass rusher” and called him a run stuffer. I don’t know how else I was suppose to interpret that. I think what you meant to say is he’s not a 3-4 OLB.

A fair amount of his pressures and sacks came from DE.

Veach really got put into a shitty position last year.

I bet a he was as pissed off at Sutton as anyone. You had to think he was wanting Lucas and Ward to get on the field most of the season, especially after Lucas’ showing in the Jags game.
I bet he was venting to Andy about Sutton’s scheme taking forever to learn for new players.

It’s been mentioned multiple times that Spags scheme is simple for his players and he likes getting young players involved.

Good news for everyone.

I hope so, but Chris Simms on his podcast suggested that Spags' D was overly complicated.

Again, I said he WAS a run stuffer. That's past tense and implies he's not that NOW, present tense.

In college, he played DE and DT, with his hand in the dirt. You can't just read what I wrote and ignore the fact that I literally said "with his hand in the dirt".

I’m not ignoring anything, but since when do you have to be standing up to be a pass rusher?

You saying that about a guy that got drafted for his ability to get to the QB is confusing, sorry.

Well, I like Simms a lot as a pundit.

That being said, it's funny; opinions on Spagnuolo's schemes are all over the place.

It's simple! It's too complicated! It's aggressive! It's bend, but don't break! Lots of man! lots of zone! He's too passive! He blitzes a lot!

It's literally who you talk to and which season you're talking about. That tells me that, to an extent, he's trying to do what he can with the talent at hand. That's an improvement over Sutton's rigidity at any rate. We'll see how that translates.

It can't be TOO complicated; if you look back, he starts first and second year players a fair amount of the time, so that's something. And people that have worked with and for him sing his praises as to communication with coaches and players. So, I remain somewhat optimistic that He can get this defense to middle of the pack quickly, in an ascending way, with a lot of young talent to develop. Middle of the pack in '19, upper third in '20.

then with the Mahomes contract, offense may have to give a little as Watkins type deals can't happen anymore, so defense ascending would be a good thing.

Okay, let me draw it out in pictures so it's perfectly clear. :)

Breeland Speaks in his first couple of seasons had a high TFL/sack ratio. From what I saw, he was very good at penetrating in the run game but needed work on his pass rush.

In his final season, they moved him around the line and he broke out. However, even in his final season, he played as a DOWN lineman. I used the term "hand in the dirt" as a descriptor, let me change that to "heads up right on a lineman". In other words, he was used to playing in a box and being engaged at the point of attack, beating linemen with strength and leverage.

He came to the Chiefs and the first thing they did was move him to OLB, where he no longer had "his hand in the dirt". Again, let me change the descriptor - they asked him to PLAY IN SPACE. They were expecting him to play with more speed and changing the way he could use his leverage because he had to close space between him and the lineman.

You're confusing my criticism of HOW the Chiefs used him to rush the passer as an indictment of his ability TO rush the passer. I never said he couldn't rush the passer and you completely read something into my statements I did not say.

Is it clear now?

You are saying all this with hindsight because the FA and rookie class turned out to be not good. You dont know that going into it with 100 percent certainty.

I am arguing the attempt. They didnt even make an attempt in the draft or offseason until Training Camp when they realized the shit sandwich they made.

They signed Amerson and then let about 6 months go by until they saw him in preseason and said wow this guy really stinks and we have no other options.

Lol Dude, I get it. I’m just explaining why I misunderstood your point.

I saw some sideline videos of Spagnuolo and he looks animated and into it, compared to Sutton who stood there like a deer in the headlights. That's something too.

Oh so only you’re allowed to use hindsight in this discussion? This whole argument is based on it LMAO

And they did make an attempt which I’ve already pointed out. They wanted Kyle Fuller and signed him to an offer sheet. They also continued looking for corners after signing Amerson hence Scanrdick and Ward. Why do you continue to ignore Ward?

Also, they had great depth at RB and you chalked it up to getting “bailed out”, so it’s pretty obvious you just like to ****ing bitch and you’re full of shit.

ROFL

So I went to all that work for nothing? :deevee:

guys, guys, guys. I fixed everything in my mock over in the draft forum. Just fire Veach and hire me at half the money now.

:D

Lol It was well thought out and much less confusing than your original post, so good job nonetheless! :)

I'm anxious to see Speaks back in the 4-3. I think they did him a big disservice last year. Him emerging as a starter means they can do almost anything they want with Houston and/or Ford. He's one of the lynchpins to rebuilding this defense. He reminded me a lot of Tamba Hali in college and I think he has that kind of potential.

I think so too. Although, really, his job just gets easier, so no harm done.

And, after spending a season trying to learn coverage (TRYING. ahem.) there's always the odd zone blitz a couple of times a season in which he could at least sorta do it.

Emmitt gone officially

I just keep thinking about how surprising he was at OLB.

I have no doubt he will surprise those that still doubt him despite the position/scheme change.

Good.

I really like the kid.

And he's a funny kid, like Jones. Those two are going to be hilarious come SB week next year when everyone's talking about how the Chiefs defense was the surprise of the league.

(hope springs eternal. :) )

*there's my straight up, 100% unapologetic homer take.

Speaks will never be in the same league as Hali... Speaks is way too slow.

I think there are going to be a lot of people here disappointed when the Chiefs keep Ford on the roster.

Where do you see Speaks/Ford fitting in with an under/reduced front? I can't see Houston or Ford playing the sam in that front, I wouldn't want either dropping into coverage. I can see Houston as the strong side 5 tech DE, and maybe Hitchens as the sam? I can see DoD as the will.. but not sure on where to float Ford/Speaks (rather have speaks as the weak wide end, and tag/trade ford for either a true mike or sam)

I like Speaks at SDE then sliding down inside to replace Nnadi on passing downs.

I disagree about Houston playing SAM. If Vernon could do it, Houston certainly can.

The question is what happens with Ford. If Ford is tagged and not traded, he’s definitely be the LEO (WDE). If not, I think Houston will be.

If Reid really does think it's all about interior pressure in the modern NFL, does it make since to pay Dee Ford big bucks?

nope.