Dude, that is a TOTAL load of BS. The team was a sinking ship before Herm got there. Don't act like Herm was the one who brought them there. The team hit rock bottom because between 1995 and 2007, Carl Peterson was arguably the worst drafter in the NFL. And they had the oldest roster in the NFL. And to top it all off, they made "band aid" moves for 5 years, which put them in one of the worst cap situations in the NFL.

But by all means, let's blame that on the head coach. Nevermind that the head coach was screaming up and down to tear that team apart and rebuild while our stubborn GM insisted on forcing Herm to play veterans. And yes, it's widely believed that it was Herm who forced Clark Hunt to let him blow the team up. And thank god he did.

Its very doubtful many fans thought that, but if herm didnt have atleast a strong hand in drafting, why did he inherit a bunch of crap yet end up leaving us half of the current starters this far along into the new regime?

Count me out of the herm vs. todd debate, it is no debate imo, i'll take haley every single time as a Head Coach and i still believe in most of what he's selling, despite the fact that he HAS proven to be beyond 'meddlesome' with oc's, to this teams detriment.

Give herm his due, this team collected more talent under him in three years than in the preceding eight, you cant say he didnt strongly influence those drafts.

Yup.

But one correction... doubt anybody is actually debating Herm vs. Haley. Haley is clearly a superior coach. And he's done a lot of really good things during his tenure. I believe what he's selling too. Frankly, I still believe that right now it's looking like the problem isn't the coach, but the QB the coach was given.

The sooner Pioli quietly admits defeat on this one, the better.

He should work on proving that.

There's definitely some truth in there, but as much as I'd like to, you can't blame 41-7 solely on the QB.

I think 41-7 was due to a coaching gamble that didn't pay off. A mistake for sure, but not one I'm going to get too hung up about. Or it could be because it's the 3rd system in 3 years. I don't really know.

I think most of us would feel pretty good if Haley can coach and start getting some stability from the QB position.

The #'s don't lie...

2 seasons and 1 game into the third season for the Herm/Carl regime and the Haley/Pioli regime:

Herm/Carl: 13-21 (0-1 in the playoffs, scored 8 points in playoff lost)
Haley/Pioli: 14-20 (0-1 in the playoffs, scored 7 points in playoff lost)

Both regimes had their only playoff seasons with the NFC West on the schedule.

The book on Haley is pretty clear now... his ego has destroyed any chance of the Chiefs attracting/retaining high quality assistant coaches and having any legit championship aspirations.

The book on Pioli is now being exposed and it is exposing Pioli as a FRAUD. Pioli's 2009 draft looks like an epic disaster and his 2010 draft has huge holes in it (see the second round draft picks). The most productive players on the roster are mostly players drafted by Carl (Jamaal Charles, Derrick Johnson, Tamba Hali, Dwayne Bowe, etc.) Pioli also has yet to sign an impact free agent.

TRUTH BOMB


http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...78302975_n.jpg

I'm not as worried about Haley. I still think he's a good coach, and I think he's more than capable of of running the offense. But none of this spit the time bullshit. He needs to hire a bunch of capable assistants, have his assistants coach and game plan, then he needs to take absolute control of playcalling.

Pioli's done fine with this team. This team has become pretty deep while barely spending a dime. I don't think we should overreact and say that this team is in the Andrew Luck sweepstakes. They won't end up even close. But what's pretty clear is that in year 3 of the Pioli experiment, this team isn't nearly as good as it should be, and that falls on what looks like the wrong decision in picking our QB.

The good news is, I truly think this team is a QB away from being contenders. The bad news is... well... they're a great QB away from being contenders.

Herm/Carl: 10-6 to 2-14
Haley/Pioli: 2-14 to 10-6

Numbers can lie when the person trying to use them is reeruned.

Good old KCChiefsfan88. He's always here when the chips are down. You found a buddy.

LMAO

This team is not deep.

Can you even imagine what would happen to the offense if Jamaal Charles missed a game....god, just the thought is horrifying.

The whole Pioli inherited the best players on the team thing makes me wonder, why is this a knock on Pioli? Should Pioli have cut those players and replaced them with FA and draft picks to prove he can find his own guys? It's silly to me to find fault with Pioli because many of the best players on the team were here before him. You're right there were several good players already on the team. So what should Pioli have done with that fact?

Here's something Pioli is doing, he is recognizing those good players, and resigning them before they hit FA.

That's a way he's different from Peterson.

Now KcChiefsfan88 is trying to make a case for Herm and Carl?

He's another bi-polar piece of shit.

You should follow your statement above... numbers DO lie if you don't look at their context.

Herm/Carl oversaw the Chiefs as they transitioned to a major youth movement from the oldest team in the league.

Haley/Pioli inherited a young team and have won due mostly to talent drafted/acquired by Herm/Carl that is now reaching their NFL potential (see Tamba Hali, see Dwayne Bowe, see Jamaal Charles).

There's a whole hell of a lot of assuming that Herm could have even gotten the most out of Jamaal, Bowe, DJ, and Hali.

Bowe was an out of shape, lax receiver before Haley and co. arrived. DJ was working on his 3rd linebacker spot in 4 years before they arrived and Hali was on his way to being a rotational lineman. If Herm was here, we seriously still might be looking at Larry Johnson on this roster.

If I'm given a 66 corvette to drive, and I fix it up and make it look good, the guy who I bought the car off of shouldn't get the credit for the way it looks just because he had it before me.

Herm/Carl are the equivalent of Adolf Hitler to Europe... mass destruction. That has already been confirmed.

The fact Haley/Pioli's win/loss record is virtually identical to the worst head coach/GM duo in Chiefs franchise history speaks volumes about how lackluster the so called "new era" of Chiefs football has been.

It's deeper than it was, given that (as Dave said earlier), they had to cut 50 guys from the roster. That's a ton of seats to fill in 3 years.

Pioli's done a good job of rounding out the roster, especially given that last year was not a good year for free agents. I'm happy so far with the moves he's made at some of the non-critical positions. The problem is he's done a bad job on the critical ones. It's damning now, but it's not like that can't be fixed if he starts making some good decisions. And who knows... if Powe and Houston or Sheffield pan out, then we're done to one critical position we have to fill. Granted, it's the most important position on the team, but still...

Yes. The problem is, you actually have to understand the context first.

That's right, they did. In 2008. And the 2008 season, apart from the first game, wasn't factored into the numbers you posted. So that excuse holds no water.

So if Herm/Carl, or "Hitler" caused "mass destruction", you allow for no time to clean up "Europe" even though two years into the "reconstruction" the "allied forces" managed to get "France" back on it's feet again? Even though that project was helped by an "easy schedule".

LMAO

'Hamas' Jenkins needs to comment on this whacked-out WW2 analogy.

I'd say we're in year 4 of the rebuild.

But I think what's getting people riled up is pretty simple. The Chiefs would be in fine progress for the rebuild if they had a good QB. Ditto for Nose Tackle.

I think Pioli's done much better things the haters will give him credit for, but nobody can ignore that he's so far fallen ridiculously short on the two most critical pieces.

Well said.

Why shouldn't he??

Weis had already quit on this team since before the Oakland game, and the way the game plans looked for both games, if I were haley, I would question Weis, and strip his ass of play-calling duties too.
But ONLY because Weis felt he had to come out and tell everyone he was lameduck, and **** up team chemistry.

You're making a lot of assumptions here about things we don't know.

Bowe, and DJ, two of our best players, would have NEVER reached their potential under that regime. Hali would still be getting 8 sacks in the 4-3, and we would still SUCK BAWLS.

Please tell me what these multiple assumptions are.

You're claiming that Weis was stripped of playcalling duties based on a tip provided by a bunch of guys eating pizza. You're suggesting that Weis leaving ****ed with team chemistry. And you're leaving out the fact that if Weis was stripped of playcalling duties, Haley's gameplan looked eerily similar to Weis'.

We don't know much of anything. More than anything, you're painting the tone that Weis was the bad guy. I think we can assume that Weis/Haley didn't get along, but we have no idea who pissed off who.

And who provided the tip to Fescoe? And since when did Whitlock become a credible source for what defines Todd Haley?

Yeah, you're right. I've never given those ****ers any credibility before. I don't know why I was trying to start now.

Problem was it was a tip from two guys at a pizza shop who claimed to know Weis. That's a little shady. And again, PFT laughably uses a Whitlock quote to validate that this game was all Haley. Guess what... Whitlock had that comment ready to go no matter what the circumstance, because it gave him an extra chance to jab at Haley or Pioli.

Think most of us can safely assume that the two didn't get along. Then again, a small part of us can't rule out that maybe Weis left for family reasons. And if they didn't get along, nobody really knows whose fault that was. If I had to guess, I'd guess it was a little of both.

Why shouldn't he?? Maybe because his own playcalling sucked ass in 2009 and Weis' was much better.

I don't think he took it away in any event. The rumor comes from someone in a pizza shop who called in to a radio hack. I don't recall anyone watching the game and saying "oh look, Haley has the play card in front of him, he's calling the plays in the 2nd half."

And we have this ..http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-haley-report/

too many characters...and I don't think talking about Peterson shitting himself is an appropriate premise to an article...makes the audience uncomfortable

Herm lost 12 consecutive games and lost 21 of his final 23 games coaching the chiefs.

Are we really comparing that to Haley? Maybe if we were 1-15 instead of 0-1.

Sweet.

In today's NFL with parity, free agency, etc. you don't need 3 years to clean-up... the clean-up should be completed and the Chiefs should be building off of last year.

Instead it looks like last year's success was just a product of one of the weakest schedules in recent NFL history.

Judging by what has transpired the early part of this season, it appears the Chiefs are much closer to the 2009 team than last year's team... which means that virtually no progress has been made under Haley/Pioli.

Herm/Carl at least had an excuse for why things tanked after their playoff season... they took the oldest team in the league and started a massive youth movement. Haley/Pioli have a young team that should be on the upswing, yet that doesn't appear to case.

If you can provide any evidence, based on the Buffalo fiasco that the Chiefs are still on the upswing and will build on last year's playoff performance, I'd be very interested to see it.

Well if you combined the end of last year, the Chiefs have been outscored by something like 100+ to 30. All games were at Arrowhead.

Not exactly a positive trend upwards.

Ok, I thought you said Peterson and Herm caused massive destruction you know, like Hitler, but if they had an excuse so I guess they're off the hook.

Yeah, it looks bad for the Chiefs right now. They appear to have entered the season unprepared to play, which is a direct result of the way Haley handled training camp and the preseason. I blame Haley for making a really bad decision on how to go about things this off season, and yeah it goes back to Pioli for hiring Haley, but I believe Pioli wasn't thrilled with the choice in the first place. He was late in getting the GM job, and had fewer HC options when the process began, also he doesn't seem to really care for Haley, and I'll bet if the season continues the way it's started this will be Haleys last season.

Pioli might prove to make everyone long for the days of Peterson, I just don't see how you could be there just yet.

Changing the QB will do FAR more to help this team. Then changing either the GM or HC or both IMO. THe hiring of Zorn show they at least admit there is concern there

Yes, we've been bested three times at home in a row and all of them have been ugly. We're struggling something awful. We have some talented players and there's really no excuse for some of what's happening out there.

Haley has given me one horrible and frustrating season, and the way he's handled this season is not exactly a positive mark.

All I have to do is watch the end of the KC/Tampa game in 08 to know Herm is the dumbest coach in the world. He literally snatches defeat from the jaws of victory. Haley still has some proving to do before I'm sticking him in the same company as that dipshit.

LMAOLMAOLMAOLMAOLMAO

What's that smell?

I think it would be insulting to Herm/Carl to compare them to Haley/Pioli now.

Herm/Carl -

http://www.newyorkshitty.com/wp-cont...eenstshit1.jpg

Haley/Pioli -

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lb...dl16o1_500.png

That is one big pile of shit.

ROFL

If Haley had a quarterback, he might have already gotten us deep into the playoffs a couple times and had a nice sized extension by now.

This should be painfully obvious, Goat. Hell, even with the drama involved, I'd still take Haley over Herm any day of the week, and I'd bet 95% of this board would too.

I would take just about anyone save for Richie Kotite, over the Herminator fer sure.

He had his chance with his QB. The kid couldn't throw over 10 yards.

I still can't figure out how Clay knows how they all smell. :shrug:

If you traipse through a glistening, burning AIDS forest enough times, you develop supernatural powers.

Well according to Haley, Pioli, Weiss and all the coaches in the booth it wasn't true. But you must know better.

I got to the second paragraph.......man, it was brutal.

Not hard to recognize right away who wrote this stinker.

Herm "15 wins in 3 years" Edwards

The revisionist history around here is mind-boggling.

I still can't get over them starting that clown :banghead: