No arrest, no charges. Doesn't matter to Commish, the hammer will drop this time. 4+ games is definetely possible.

Give Kiper credit here... a little, anyway.

http://www.nyjetschat.com/forum/lofi...hp?t14252.html

Kiper's Combine Update (2/28)
Tuesday, February 28, 2006
Personnel Points on NFL combine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Mel Kiper Jr.
Special to ESPN Insider

Quarterback
Jay Cutler, Vanderbilt (6-4, 230)
He is fast becoming one of the most overhyped players in this draft. Cutler was OK, but not great, at the Senior Bowl, but he's drawing all these rave reviews at the NFL scouting combine. He hasn't done anything at the combine that has wowed me to move him up in the draft.

Jay Cutler is going to be a top-15 pick, but does not rank as high QBs Matt Leinart or Vince Young.

Cutler hasn't improved his draft position by what he did at the Senior Bowl or combine. He had a good senior season and finished strong. If you like Cutler based on how he finished the season, that's fine, but don't think that he's moved up dramatically based on the Senior Bowl and combine.

He's going to go in the top 15 of the first round and might even go in the top five. But what he's done since the season ended doesn't put him up with Matt Leinart or Vince Young.

I still have him in the top 10 of the draft, but you shouldn't think he'll be a top-three pick.

Who's better? Jay Cutler or Tom Brady? I'll take Brady, yet he has inferior physical tools compared to Cutler. Physical skills of QBs are over-weighted on here. All other things equal, the guy with the better physical skills is going to be the better QB. But in the case of Cutler and Cassel, are all other things equal? McDaniels obviously thinks not.

I guess, but he thinks Young and Leinart are good in that story, and between them both they'll maybe start 2 games next year.

Wow... so you're saying that you have no idea what you're talking about. This information will be of much use to me going forward, thanks.

Ouch! LMAO

When you can state a lucid thought in a clear manner please feel free to post again. What you said here borders on skinbra.

Given your post, what did you expect? You either don't know how the Patriots system works at all, or you were just blowing smoke out of your ass.

Feel free to correct me where you think I was in error and engage in a football conversation.

Or you can continue to blurt out ignorant snippets then dissapear forever like 99% of the n00bs I've seen come and go here.

Cutler's the equivalent of a butterface. Physically everything you want, but something's...missing above the shoulders.

And I ain't talkin' about about what he looks like.

Though that department does NOT fall short in LMAO-Factor.

Physically everything you want, if you want a QB with a chronic uncurable disease that could end his career at any moment hanging over his head like a ****ing axe. It amazes me how little mention that gets. Even if the guy's last name was Manning, that alone would send up warning flares. Does anybody really think that wasn't a factor in the trade-that-never-was?

There is that.

Seriously. Whiny, sullen AND diabetic? Yeah, there's a guy I want to build my franchise around. :whackit:

LMAO

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/n...KOMELTDOWN.jpg

You made an argument about the system being all about the Patriots offense being:

That's clearly not the system, as the season before last amply demonstrated. Last season, defenses changed how they were playing and double teamed Moss on pretty much every play by rotating the safety over, which is why the YAC went up so much.

I mean, it's not as if 2007 didn't happen.

The NE passing offense has always been predicated on the YAC instead of the long ball. This was true before Moss. Not sure if you are saying NE is a long-ball team or what you are getting at.

That's not the Patriots passing offense. The Patriots passing offense is based off of both the quarterback and the receiver reading the defenders, while the play is ongoing, and adjusting to the actions of those players. It's not a "Go Deep!/Go short!"Do a 10 yard out!" offense.

That's why Moss was killing people deep 2 years ago.

Of course, one of the real ironies of your comment is that Cassel was #1 in YAC in the AFC this season, but Cutler was #2.

http://sports.iwon.com/nfl/stats/lea...rcatchqbs.html

The Patriots were #3 in the league, with Denver at #5:

http://sports.wcbstv.com/fb/tmleader...iving&rank=231

Edit: for some comparison sake, here's one from the season before (albeit only through 15 weeks), with Brady rather than Cassel:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2007...-for-pass.html

You can see that Brady's %YAC is actually lower than Cutler's.

Kiper is mad b/c he liked Young and Leinart over Cutler and neither of them is starting...

Again, Jay has his issues, but with the defense giving up 30 points every other game, you can' make up for that every time.

With Kiper throwing a dis at Jeff George how long until Whitlock calls him an 'Assclown' or the Italian equivalent?

The difference was 3 games... and had the NE defense given up 30 points or more in 9 of their games, I'm willing to bet they wouldn't have reached 11 wins. But, don't let that spoil your fun...

That was one Thig-a-riffic take, Mile High! :D

Right. By that logic, Denver's 8-8 was inches from 5-11 (SD, NO, and TB). Not to mention @ Cleveland and Atlanta (easily could have been losses) and your looking at 3-13.

Well, take it however you like... fact remains that most QBs, elite or not, do not consistently win if the defense sucks.

Broncos' DEF gave up 30, 30 and 52 points in the final 3 games... Cutler made 45 and 49 attempts in the last two games. That's a QB playing with no ground game and no defense.

I'm not one of those that thinks he's the second coming of Elway, nothing like that at all. But, he is a good QB with a very nice future... this thing will work itself out.

You can do that with any team...

My point was, the previous poster was simply comparing the two QBs and W/L records... it's just not that simple.

Here's a nice link with QB comparisons. http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/3...stats-on-cutle

Yes you can do that with any team. You brought up the 3 game spread between records. :shrug:

You're reeruned.

I pretty much agree with Mr. Mile High Mania that wins and losses don't tell a quarterback's entire story. But if you win a lot, it will get you a long term contract. Don't, and you get fired.

Personally, I've thought Cutler was overrated for a long, long time. It's true that he made Vanderbilt a better football team, but in retrospect, I realize that Aunt May playing tackle would have made Vanderbilt a better football team.

Unless or until he can set aside the excuses (bad defense, dropped balls, crummy coach, etc.) and start winning games it's going to come to a sad end for him. That's it. There is no more. The bird is morte.

Many are the quarterbacks who have come and gone in this league with phenomenal physical tools who weren't successful for one reason or another.

FAX

Fax... I don't think he's using any of these as excuses... just those of us on the forums. Hell, the Great Peyton never won his ring until the Colts woke up one post-season and figured out how to play defense after what had to be one hell of a good night's sleep. Prior to that, many viewed Peyton as a stats freak at QB that liked to blame his OL for mistakes and would never be able to win the big one.

Things certainly changed when his defense played better.

Cutler definitely has areas of improvement and is far from being the best QB he can be...

It took Rivers some time to grow up a bit, and some still debate if he has done that. But, many think he's now got "it" and can lead a team, pointing to his ability to put them on his back late in 2008.

Just don't forget it took him some time to get there...

This is Jay's 3rd full year going into camp as the starter, with a new coach and system... last thing we needed was this big drama, especially with Marshall's dumbass staring at a suspension.

We'll see what happens.

1.) 3 games is a big difference when you only play 16. You must know that.

2.) "Stupid to want a back-up QB over a Pro-Bowler. Cassell is a serviceable back up so long as he has a strong defense keeping the game close." was what I was responding to. It's not as if that poster was busy breaking down tape or talking to scouts prior to making his post. It was particularly foolish given that he was pimping a quarterback that has fewer winning seasons in College and the Pros than Cassel has.

I'm not sure whether to respond or just let you roll..

You're just not getting the point of my comments.

I'm getting it fine. I'm just not buying it. There's a difference.

Ahhhh... ok, so then you are fully expecting 10+ wins from Cassell in KC this year b/c it's all about the QB and not the other factors, like defense or OL.

Gotcha. Good to know.

The term "excuse" was probably poorly chosen, Mr. Mile High Mania. In fact, after reviewing my post, the entire thing makes little sense. I blame the drugs.

Nevertheless, Cutler has to start winning. It's that simple. He never has, so it's tough to compare him to Manning. As for the defense, great quarterbacks find a way to overcome the shortcomings of their team. Trent Green, for example, won a lot of games with a laughing stock of a defense. Literally. Anyhow, we're talking quarterback play - not defense.

My point is this; Cutler has great physical tools, but he's never developed to the point he can make the difference between a win and a loss - and come out on the winning side. He couldn't do it in college and he hasn't yet proven he can do it in the NFL. You're right, he might develop into something special. But, there is nothing in his history or current situation that leads me to believe he's about to make that transition.

FAX

I'm not expecting anything. I wasn't the one who made the post pimping Cutler at Cassel's expense. I merely responded to it. That's why I didn't buy your argument. It wasn't that your point had absolutely no historical validity, it was that it didn't apply to the given circumstances created by the first poster.

Jesus Christ; you can 'Tard Slap-Fight' for HOURS. I must admit; I'm impressed!

Rep!

Ok... Green had 2 winning seasons as the QB in KC.

2001: 6 wins
2002: 8 wins
2003: 13 wins
2004: 7 wins
2005: 10 wins

Defense pretty much sucked in each of those years, but it wasn't just Green... you had a guy named Priest, remember him and all that production?

Hell, in 2003 when Green finally broke .500 in wins... Priest had 1400+ yds and 27 TDs rushing.

So, are we still putting all the glory on Trent for 2003?

Oh and in 2005, the other year over .500 ... some guy named LJ had 1700 yds and 20 TDs.

Still all Trent?

I'm not suggesting he sucked, but c'mon... he was very good, but seriously, those double digit seasons were helped out quite a bit with the nice RB production.

Denver has had issues for a few years now, which is why Shanahan is gone...

He's not really that good...

...And McDaniels pass happy offense should shore that right up! :eek:

EDIT: added the first part of Mile High's post

I actually like what Denver's been doing. It's just unfortunate for them that the team's quarterback is less mature than your average zygote.

Shananhan was never able to fix the defense and he went through too many DC's trying to fix it. Offensively, they were fine for the most part - there were way too many RB injuries last year, but the defense has been horrific for years.

I don't think the DEN offense will have an issue moving to the new philosophy. That is.. once this drama ends, and it will.

Hmmm. First it was defense, now it's the running back. Dang, you're shifty.

Sure. Cutler hasn't put together a winning season throughout all of college or his time in the pros because he hasn't had any help. Please.

Look. All I'm saying Mr. Mile High Mania is this; Cutler has what it takes to be a good quarterback from a physical standpoint - maybe a great one. But he's never, ever, ever been a winner. Of course Vandy sucks - so one would think that would and could hold a guy back. But the goats?

So, since he's never, ever, ever been a winner, we can only speculate that he will become one of those bad boys eventually. Now that he's gone all PMS on the team, I'm supposed to believe that he's on the verge of his breakthrough?

FAX

I'm curious as to what Mel Kiper Jr.'s hair had to say about this subject.

In fact, I bet his hair is what gives him advice about the draft.

I don't understand Kiper's analysis. Pretty sure Cutler doesn't get to throw to Randy Moss or Wes Welker. While I'm glad we have Cassell, I would without a heartbeat take Cutler. I don't see one bit what is so bad with him?

I don't have a problem with his play. I do have a problem with him acting like a teenage girl who had her cell phone taken away.

Good God, Cutler was throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal. Together they're EASILY on Moss and Welker's level.

Why some of my conspirators here cite him as a QB to have I will NEVER understand.

Not trying to be shifty, just sticking with my argument that it's not all about the QB... Elway was one of the greatest of all time, but it took a hell of a running game and an improved defense for him to win two titles.

Sure, he got 'em to three and lost and Jay has yet to do that...

But, you threw in the comparison to Trent Green and all the games he won, I merely pointed out that he only had 2 seasons better than .500 and in those 2 seasons... he had a hell of a lot of help at RB, to help offset that crappy defense.

Ok - I'm out. We'll see what happens...

Oh, Jeez, Mr. Mile High Mania. You know that I merely brought up Green in response to your assertion that Cutler wasn't winning games due to the defense. Green is the poster child of a quarterback who won games in spite of one of the worst defenses of all times. That's all.

Look. The fact is that Cutler has never - not in college or the pros - quarterbacked a winning season. Peeps can blame that on his defense, his running back, or severe diaper rash but the fact remains.

I'm not convinced that Cutler is a winner. I have good reason for that - his entire history. Goat fans will believe otherwise, which is understandable but based on faith - nothing more. You're right. We'll see. And, should he alienate his coaching staff further, we'll see him traded.

FAX

Gotcha! Well, my final note on Green is that as you look back on his 5 1/2 years in KC... 3 1/2 seasons were .500 or below and he won 48 games while losing 40 games with 0 playoff wins.

In that era of KC football.. the offense was insane, but tap the brake just a bit on the "Trent Green" thing... he was 8 games over .500.

Jay needs to get over .500 without a doubt, and I hope they end this drama soon.

Last time I checked, quarterbacks don't play defense. You have to have it on both sides. Nothing Trent Green could of done for the defense. If Trent Green had the old Baltimore Ravens defense the Chiefs probably would of won 3 super bowls. It wasn't all Trent either, you coulda put alot of QB's into that system and had great success.

Going back to Elway, Elway was probably one of the most overrated QB's of all time. While he was a great player, he can thank his two super bowls to TD, who is by all accounts, one of the most dominating players ever in the short span where he was good.

**snicker**

Denver's HC wants our QB.


marinate

Is this a sick joke? LOL

Hell, Rivers acts that way on the field...

I agree. Throw in Stokley and it's a pretty good trio.

Cutler's in charge of a potent offense, but without a solid team, he won't win anything. He's got the Broncos at a mediocre level, and unless they make strides in conditioning and on their defense, they're maxed out right now.

It's no different than the Cards last year: They were one dimensional and only made the playoffs thanks to a miserable division, and they posted a pretty meh record despite having a HOF QB because they had no running and no defense. If the Donx had caught fire at the end of the season, they could have made a similar run. Their offense was really good, but their D was KC level bad. Honestly, Cutler is the difference between Denver having the season they had last year and them competing with us for draft position in the top 5.

ROFL

Cutler's Jake Plummer part deux. He makes so many great plays that his teams will never be terrible, but he makes so many terrible plays that his teams will never be great.

Kiper didn't really convince me. I was expecting some sort of breakdown of Cassel's skills, or attributes.

WTF? You countered a W/L argument (Cassel vs. Cutler) with a W/L argument (difference of 3 games).

I agree that's not a measure by which to compare QBs so don't use "a difference of 3 games" to do it.

He's far and away nothing like Plummer back there... he has a lot to improve on though, the guy has a lot of talent.

Again, he's a little bitter that Leinart and Young are warming the bench for journeyman QBs pushing 40.

I wonder if the bloom will ever come off Shanahan in Denver? Sure, he's an OK coach, deserves credit for those super bowls 10 years ago with Reeves' team. But how many poor free agent signings did they make, how rarely did it seem that anything they drafted worked out?

And this Cutler situation along with, obviously, Shanahan's firing, shows that Bowlen is not high on him at all and may have come to the same conclusion, that nobody ever made as good a living off anyone as Shanahan has made off of Elway. Except maybe the living Carl Peterson made off Marty

ROFL

You're serious, aren't you?

Welker had 7 more receptions than Marshall. Marshall had 100 more yards. Marshall had double the number of touchdowns.

Royal had 91 receptions to Moss' 69 and one less 100 yard game, despite the fact that he's a rookie.

Marshall and Royal are EVERY BIT the duo that Moss and Welker are. To pretend otherwise is laughable.

Elway went to the Super Bowl 3 times without Terrell Davis. At least 2 of those teams wouldn't have come close to the Super Bowl without Elway. He's one of the best 2 or 3 QB's in the history of football, dude.

You're insane... Shanahan took over in 1995, the teams he won with were not built by Dan.

This is why I think Cutler will do well in this system once the drama stops... it's lingering way to long. Bowlen needs to call a code red on both of them.