And yet Bleeding Red can't figure out why people think he's crazy...

I don't think he's crazy. I would dump all the big contracts and save all I could and get what I could out of FA. Then draft OL and Defense.

Continuing to run a 3-4 defense the way they do now is the definition of "crazy".

I agree. We are going to the 4-3 and need new blood. We spent 2nds on Speak and Kpass. Get them on the field and spend money at LB and DB. Draft two OL and the rest on defense.

Red Dawg is backing you up. Not a good look.

In our case, it's the "question mark" that is exciting. One more time: 31st overall.

That ranking justifies the dynamite 1000 times over.

start over, have a plan w/ the free 80 million in cap space. I entirely am with this - provided they get back on-task hiring great players. Anthony Barr would be a nice start, although my only gripe is that he's somewhat inconsistent. Other times he looks all-world.

Anyhow :clap: Parker

Absolutely. :clap:

Thank you. In much the same way that the addition of Mahomes answered a lot of questions offensively, so in the same way will a properly planned and executed defense smooth out a great many of the questions regarding the ebb and flow of Reid on game day.

It takes all parts to make this work and in our particular method/system, if one phase of the game is THAT lopsided and unbalanced, it affects the rest of the program much more so than on an offense that is less dynamic.

Many of these issues regarding clocks and timeouts and all of this other shit is partially a symptom of overcompensating for the lack of that balance IMO.

Houston is in decline and Ford is in his prime. Neither will be a Chief in 2020 but this roster is built to win the SB now. Cut or Trade Houston (for peanuts if able) and tag and play Ford.

"The way they do now" is disengenuous.

Nobody wants a Sutton clone. Rex doesn't call games the way Sutton did.

People love playing Madden and dream of changing the D to a 4-3 and drafting, trading, signing FA's because it's fun to play make believe GM. It doesn't mean a complete overhaul of players and system is the right thing when the offense is firing on all cylinders.

Spags has been feast or famine. Hopefully his feast year will coincide with a good offensive year with a minor amount of injuries. People seem to be willing to place their money on Speaks and Hitchens and some unknown FA over Ford and Houston. It's a little odd since everyone complained the last 9 months about an overall lack of D talent.

Houston has a place in a 4-3 defense, Ford doesn't really fit.

Yeah, that's why people want to change to a 4-3. Madden.

Moron.

Sign Ford then ship him to a shitty NFC team.

Ship his ass to NE = Profit.

Ford is actually an ideal fit at LEO or Weak Side DE position in the 4-3 under. He's the best pass rusher on the team. He made huge strides in setting the edge this year on top of his league leading QB pressures.

While I agree, Houston does have a place though but I'm not sure his 21 mil is worth trying to fit him as a SAM LB or SS DE when there are much cheaper options.

I’ve got some bad news for you if you wagered money on this prediction.

So you think one or both will be Chiefs in 2020? I don't.

I'm old enough to remember when KC fans were clamoring to switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and were happy when the change was made.

The top 3 defenses in terms of points allowed this year are Chicago, Baltimore and Tennessee. What are their base packages?

It isn't a matter of the 3-4 being bad in and of itself. The way Sutton played it, yes - major problems. The way other DC's call coverages and blitzes, not as much of a problem.

It isn't unreasonable, moronic or stupid for people to have preferred that KC stay in a 3-4 and build of off the existing good pass rush.

If you lose Houston and Ford, who is the blue chip talent on defense? Jones as a rusher? And ....?

If you tag and trade Ford, you're going to have like at least 5 picks in the first three rounds.
Without Ford and Houston, you have an extra $32 Million dollars. Cut Sorensen, another $3.6 million. So, yeah, like $35 or $36 million depending on Ford's tag #. EXTRA. To go sign proven starters that fit the scheme. For a SS, a SAM, and a DE. Plus plenty of high picks to draft depth and development.
Also of note, your last 3 #2 picks plus last year's #3 would be your defensive line if they cut Houston and Ford and line up today. Kpass and Speaks? yeah, they were DE in college. This is their natural position.
I'd like a veteran because I don't trust both DE positions to players with so little experience. A Brandon Graham'll probably cost you like $10 mill. A KJ Wright or Anthony Barr like $8 mill. and a Landon Collins or Earl Thomas like $9 million.

So, what you're saying if you want to keep Houston/Ford is that you'd rather have those 2 guys who were on the #31 defense instead of Graham+Collins+Barr.

Which is dumb. Sorry, it just is. Graham+Collins+Barr is much, much better. Against the run, in coverage, and with Graham next to Jones in a 4-3, probably against the rush too. Jones might get 20 sacks for ****'s sake, 1 on 1 every play with a Guard.

Read your original post a little more closely.

This is reminiscent of the DV years. He stuck with Robinson too long and then Gunther's was brought in and they signed a dream team of "top" free agents - Bell, Surtain, Knight. And the D continued to implode.

Not saying it is going to with Spags, bit it could. Like I said earlier, Spag's D's tend to run really hot and really cold. Hopefully his hot year coincides with a decent schedule and few injuries on the offense.

Spag's defenses run hot and cold only if you do not look at the surrounding situation. In a vaccuum, you could say, yeah, his defenses are either real good or shitty.

OR you could consider asking why that might be, and look into the situations, which have been discussed here ad nauseum.

I would say that Spagnuolo has shown that in a stable environment, with a stable head coaching situation, he can build and deploy a good defense.

I disagree,

However how do you feel about Jalen Ramsey?

If they can just stop the run and stop backs catching out of the backfield it will be a monumental improvement compared to last year.

The question is simply this: Can Spag get us from 31st to 21st in defensive ypg in 2019? With a good offseason from Veach this certainly is achievable.

If we were top 20 in defensive ypg and top 18 in defensive ppg this team would have beaten NE twice, LA Rams and the LA Chargers.

Can we forget the Jalen Ramsey talk? Feel like the odds are next to nothing there. Especially for a team that desperately needs cheap contributors, not the soon to be highest paid CB.

Who's talking about Ramsey? naw. hell naw.

They won't all be choir boys, but we don't need to seek out lockerroom problems.

Look I don’t like Spags, but I know his defense. We need elite secondary players. If we let ford and Houston walk (we should) we can sign him.

To sign him first you gotta trade for him which will cost a TON

Trading one problem (peters) for another a season later(ramsey) would be the dumbest thing we could do.

Trade for Bouye and sign Amos

Draft Mack Wilson at linebacker in the first

Just because he is mouthy doesn’t make him a problem, he never punched a coach or been ejected from a game.

Andy Reid has proven he can handle player like him.

You can’t because on contract, it’s not that you won’t have to pay Jalen but You can at least structure his contract.

We can afford Bouye's contract

Especially if Ford isn't returning

FYP

Speaking from personal experience I prefer Jalen, (Houston market) just my opinion

For the last 2 years when the Chiefs had less than a 2 td lead at the end of a game, I and most people was sweating bullets because everyone knew they couldn't stop a runaway tricycle. That right there is grounds to burn the D to the ground, sift through the ashes for what can still be used and rebuild. A reasonable amount of turnover in people is necessary to get rid of old "institutional" mindset from the last few years of suck and bring in a new attitude. A new DC, a few new players and a new attitude could bring about great results. Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. A new DC and just a few "tweaks" is still insanity.

I agree, but I think they'd be willing to move Bouye.

Who knows about Ramsey.

So let me get this right you guys wanna trade a first and more for Ramsey then turn around and make him the highest paid corner? Sorry I would rather draft one

Rex Ryan BUILDS his defense exactly like Sutton does - front to back, inside out. It's HIGHLY dependent on having not just above average linemen but one-of-a-kind linemen. Sutton was fine with Dontari Poe. Without Poe? Crapfest. Rex Ryan's defense requires the same kind of personnel. Rex Ryan had exactly ZERO good seasons in Baltimore without Haloti Ngata.

I haven't played Madden in 15 years. Sorry. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Spags has also been in some REALLY bad spots. The Rams were a no-win situation. How many defensive coaches go to a team with a top 3 pick their first year and actually succeed? I can't think of any recent examples. I mean, Rex Ryan's stint as a HC was WORSE than Spags.

Furthermore, if you're dinging Spags for having to cleanup after BountyGate, you're just not being reasonable. So there's that.

No, Spags insn't a great hire. But to sit here and act like Rex Ryan would have been is laughable.

I'd prefer to trade Ford for a 2nd and flip that for Bouye.

Draft Devin Bush with our first round pick.

Fuller, Amos, Lucas, Bouye

Bush, Hitchens, DOD

Houston, Jones, Nnadi, Speaks

That's not a bad defense.

I guess Andy Reid thinks he is playing Madden too :rolleyes:

I kind of feel like the draft is where they'll address CB. It's a deep draft and I think DB's that in other years would be #1's are going to be there in the late 2nd round. They might look for a second tier guy or a guy they see as undervalued. But I doubt it'll be a big splash name.

That's what I expect too. I think they're best shot of getting a plus CB is in the draft somehow.

Jesus. Why do people keep saying let them walk? You ****ing trade them or keep them. They are far too undervalued by Chiefs fans and its stupid.

If you get rid of them who do you replace them with currently on the roster that even has a remote chance of putting up 13 sacks? Now, who do you replace the second one with that is capable of putting up 9 sacks and is great at stopping the run, good in coverage, and not to mention in a leader in the locker room? ****ing nobody. Not a single ****ing player on the current roster would come close to matching their production. Who do you sign and how do you afford to sign two of them?

If you get rid of everybody but Jones, QBs will have all ****ing day in the pocket and it wouldn't matter if we had Ramsey, Petersen, and Thomas in the secondary... well that might be enough to mitigate the leagues worst pass rush.

What will probably happen is tagging Ford, fielding offers, then most likely keeping him, they will try to restructure Houston and Berry, sign Jones really long term if possible, same for Hill, then they will draft an all-new secondary, sign an average LB and safety.

Interesting fanpost where Tyler Thigpen places the Chiefs current projected starting players in talent order with this year's draft class.


www.arrowheadpride.com/2019/1/27/18199369/how-deep-in-the-draft-can-we-improve-our-team

I think if they flip Ford, we'll end up with 3 #2 picks.

If we could come out of that with DE Jaylon Ferguson, CB Oruwariye, and maybe like a Juan Thornhill at SS, I think we'd be in good shape.

The zero chance Dee Ford "walks". He's going to be tagged and everybody knows it, so I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about people using that phrase - it's figurative.

As for Justin Houston, he needs to take a pay cut. If he refuses, then what? It's definitely likely they'll let him walk, meaning go away and get nothing in return.

You can't just keep everybody, change coordinators, add some scrubs, and expect to get better. This defense was HISTORICALLY bad. Keeping it together would be monumentally stupid.

Yeah, go for broke and trade Ford for another defensive superstar. I'd rather have Ramsey than Bouye, and Ramsey would like playing opposite this offense. He would look at it as a one up competition that if the offense balls out, he needs to play harder to show them up, like he does in Jacksonville.

Yet, you defended Sutton early in the season and placed most of the blame on a lack of talent. Now you are open to getting rid of two of arguably the #2 and #3 most important defensive players.

They do lack talent. They also lack discipline and football sense, and that includes Dee Ford.

As for "getting rid of them" you misunderstand.

I don't freaking care. If they can get picks out of Ford, fine with me. If they can get a pay cut out of Houston, even better. I care about Patrick Mahomes and doing whatever it takes to surround the kid with better units.

This defense needs GUTTED. NOBODY is irreplaceable when a unit is this bad. Sorry.

Yep, every talking head is saying its a deep defensive draft. We should get a good NFL corner in those first 3 picks. A DL too.

I have no faith Eric Berry will come back and contribute in any significant way. I think spending the money for Thomas to help lead the defense is a good option.

Since the NFL only plays a base defense about 35% of the time, 4-3/3-4 is important only in what it allows you to do on 2nd/3rd down. I think the Chiefs know what players likely fit the base defense, but the question is if a player is a sub package player, can you get the amount of value out of what you have to pay him? Veach is building the club with an eye on the cap and I think will draft best defensive talent available. I would not be surprised at all if we trade down from our one based on player value and team needs. So I bet we tag Ford and look for 4-3 players in the draft or on the street. If someone wants Ford at an advantageous deal then let him go.

According to the post by Thigpen over on AP, he thinks there at least 1/2 dozen safeties and CBs in this years draft class that are better than what's on the Chiefs roster with the exception of EB.

Chadia is on 810 making good points

Spags defense is easy to learn and play fast
Plays younger players a lot
Likes smaller players
Ford has tons of trade value but Spags likes his kind of player
All the players fit his scheme
Sutton held talent back especially young guys
Will move DL guys around for matchups
Jones will explode

I just hope they don't try to sign Ford. He'll end up missing all of next season with a back injury or something. Tag him and see what he can do.

Totally agree. Tag him and if his back problems are gone, pay him next offseason. The longer he goes without back problems, the more his core strength will improve as will his run defense.

If you're going to sign him to a deal, do it this offseason. If you tag him, do it for a year and let him walk. Why wait till he's one year older to get a deal done? That's an extra year on the back end when he's body starts breaking down.

You wouldn't get any value that way either.

Tag him, trade him or play him a year and let him walk.

Also, looking at the Cowboys stuff as we were yesterday, their whole defensive back field are free agents next year. They may make a run at Thomas, but if they do they're gonna end up letting some corners walk.

That's a place the Chiefs could look to do some trading potentiall.

Missed someone in that lineup.

I am giving Tanoh and Speaks a completely clean slate. They were never meant to be 3-4 OLB’s.

These guys have been playing in a 4-3 for years. Let’s see what they can do in a position that actually gives them a fair chance.

Half dozen? So 6.

6 CBs are frequently gone by the early 2nd round. Oftentimes 6 safeties are gone by the end of the 2nd round.

He's saying 1st and 2nd round rookie talent is better than all the random middle round turds, AIDS-riddled vets, and wheelchair-bound homeless dudes with low spirit?

Whaaaa? Say it ain't so!

This.

DJLN has mentioned it countless times but you end up ****ing yourself by tagging a player and then signing him to a deal a year later because you're increasing the average cost per season that he's going to start at.

Yep.

The contract number would start with "whats the tag number for the first 2 years, start with that as the guaranteed money".

You can possibly build in some value with a long term deal. Once you tag them once, that's gone.

exactly this, people need to stop making players a personal relationship. it is a business and this unit failed this year.

???

No they arn't, what are you talking about?

Pardon me, some are in 2020. The next 2 offseasons they're going to be having to drop some money on keeping their guys around.

People just need to get over the 4-3, 3-4

Dee Ford's ass is likely out the door not because of the scheme switch. It's probably gone because he's going to be expensive, and he's also a butt****ing moron who can't line up correctly.

Justin Houston for the same reason. If he's gone, it's because he's really ****ing expensive. Not because we made the scheme switch. If we had stayed with the 3-4, we might have let these guys walk anyway.

Again. The scheme switch is nice because it will be friendlier to young players, which means we don't have to rely on brokedick vets. We also have all kinds of out-of-place talent we've acquired like Hitchens, Kpass, and Speaks that might find new life in this defense, because the way things were going for them in the 3-4, they were going to be busts. No, it's not a guarantee, but it gives us a better chance with them.

That's a positive of the switch. There are drawbacks to it as well. You and BleedingVagina have brought them up. Do the positives outweigh the negatives? That's where the disagreement is.

To be fair, ChiefNJ has a long history of just being a contrarian. He's brought up some good points in counterpoint but most likely solely because they are counter.

On the other hand, BR actually believes that changing to the 4-3 is a big deal and going to screw the team.

Yeah I was confused, they just drafted Jordan Lewis ( I like) and Chidobe Awuzie (Pretty good) and Xaiver Woods.

Jeff Heath (Sorenson Cloan) and Byron Jones (Maybe good?) are tho

We need to look at their DT's tho, because I think David Irving and Tyrone Crawford are prime cute candidates.

It's also an exercise in futility to compare the Chiefs to Chicago and Baltimore defensively. Those teams are built around defense, defensive squads.

The Chiefs aren't. They aren't going to be at the level of those teams until they start putting that many resources into the defense.

They need a good solid defense. They don't need an elite unit over there.

I think Crawford and Irving are free agents so they're gone anyway.

Byron Jones is a top 5 corner in the league, he's gonna get PAID a shitload.

This also kind of shows my issue with people saying the Chiefs need to draft all defense or a bunch of corners this year. If they hit, you've got them all coming due at one time. Now that's a nice problem to have, but it's just another salary issue.

Losing 2 of 3 potential pro-bowl Rushers isn't a good point?

Statistical Analysis of Spag defense not preforming isn't a good point?

Pointing our recent examples of switching Defensive Base formations can be tricky isn't a good point?

And when I said "Screw the team" (Never did) I said this doesn't somehow make us a better defense. In fact I repeated numerous times that I believe pass rush will be cut in half, and other categories would remain close to same.

I'm sorry you disagree with my well thought out, analytically backedup opinion. Again, I've also said "I HOPE I'M WRONG"

Losing Ford and/or Houston has NOTHING TO DO WITH SCHEME CHANGE. It's a salary cap issue that would have arisen with or WITHOUT a scheme change.

How many times do you have to hear it before you realize how freaking wrong you are?

Yeah the difference is the Cowboys have a staggering 124 Million (Current Projection) of Cap space in 2020....

Of course Dak/Zeke/Cooper will eat alot of that, but their offensive linemen have taken some huge discounts.

Sure it's a big number.

But again, as you said here those 3 are going to eat up a big ass portion of that. Plus you've got Jaylon Smith and Byron Jones on the D who are going to take up a massive portion of it.

That looks like a big number. But you put a top WR salary on there, the top RB salary and a franchise QB on there and it's gonna shrink super ass fast.

I might call them up and see if they'd take a 2nd rounder for Byron Jones.

This is YOUR opinion, please don't pretend it's fact.

Losing Ford is 100% going to be based on scheme change if/when it happens. Also there is no way of knowing how EITHER will preform in a 4-3.

So yeah, I'd have kept 3-4 because at least then you KNEW where the weakness was. Now, we get to play a game of "What do we need next year".

I'm sorry to you disagree, but I don't ****ing care.

I don't think Byron Jones fit Spag mold of CB tho, someone here stated he liked "Small ones" I don't know that I can validate that tho.

P.S. I would LOVE JAYLON SMITH on this defense

Crawford isn't a FA but he's rumored to be a cut due to the cap.

ROFL

We've been talking about the possibility of tagging and trading Ford for OVER A YEAR. We've been talking about cutting Houston for even longer. We've been talking about both possibilities for MONTHS longer than any discussion about changing schemes.

Keep pretending the scheme change has anything at all to do with it. You're entitled to be wrong.