What do you guys think about tagging and trading ford for Clowney?

Srsly

Yeah I doubt Houston keeps him, tagged player for tagged player...

Depends on what you're calling a rookie. I can see Fuller and Ward as the CB and Watts/Lucas as Safeties. Ward, Watts, and Lucas all got in some playing time this year. Ward showed real week to week improvement and I see him as CB2. I think it would take a really special rookie to beat him out next spring. Safety, with or without EB, is a question. Didn't get to see enough of Watts or Lucas playing to get a good gauge on where their at. I thought both showed promise but Lucas did it in less playing time.

I still surprised at how well the Chiefs defensive players match up to a 4-3 alignment without any changes. Only talking a couple of guys who "don't fit" somewhere, almost all the arguments here is cost/production which is the same arguments we have here year after year after year after year...

That's true-except that BB always has drafted the next guy who is right behind him on the depth chart. We've got some glaring holes.

I could easily move on from Berry, Houston, Bailey, Sorensen, Nelson, and Ford, signing stopgap vets to short deals to play for a year or two while we draft and develop youngsters behind them. I think over the long term that is the smart path, as the bulk of our cap will be spent on the offense going forward. Drafting and developing is going to be THE key.

Clowney is the most overrated OLB/DE, he came out of the draft and everyone looked at his measurables and said ,"He's a freak, he's going to be great!" No, he's not. He's subpar with his gifts so let someone else make a mistake paying him so he fades into obscurity. You have to get value for the trade and I'd rather trade Ford plus a pick for a great player then just swapping guys we have no intention of keeping around.

I mean he’s playing out of position in Houston and he is amazing at run stopping

I like Ward and Fuller a lot as 2/3rds of your primary corner stable. Fuller's really best in the slot, but yeah. You need one more high talent guy. Watts and Lucas both play more of a FS, we'll need more of a SS in this new defense. Berry's great at that but will not be available, and wildly expensive at $16+ million. That's not a spot you want a rookie when you're trying to cover Gronk to get to the SB. If you're keeping Ford, his only real position is RDE, and his liability against the run is going to be real problem. $15 million. If you keep Houston without restructuring, that's $21.1 million for a SAM backer. Not typically a high dollar resource; less sacks, some coverage responsibilities, and primarily run stuffer.
If you tag and trade Ford, get a #2 roughly for him, You can draft his replacement without having to rely on him to produce immediately. you can play Houston at RDE, where he'd be a plus player. At $21.1 million, you still need to restructure, as that's WAY too much money if you're trying to field a solid defense.

Ideally, this what I think-
Bye Berry, $9m savings.
Bye Ford, tag and trade net #2, $15m
Restructure Houston's deal, convert chunk to bonus, etc. try to get it down to something like $13m cap hit. $8m savings.
That's an extra $30 m.
Houston plays RDE next to Jones. Both with a single blocker in front of them, as the 4-3 dictates.
Sign S Landon Collins for $15 m per.
Sign SAM Anthony Barr for $10m
Front 7 looks pretty tight, S is no longer a glaring weakness.
Draft CB's and a DE/EDGE to rotate with Houston and take that spot in a year or two.

I agree with the sentiment, but you literally can't pay JH $21.1 million dollars in 2019. Tying up that much money on a #31 defense could literally keep you from the SB.

Safety pay is stagnating and declining year over year. Absolutely no way you'll have to pay him 15 million a year.

Clowney is a clown. He’s the main reason why we had to hear about TEH COLTS OL!!!!!11 because he kept getting ****ing abused by them.

And you wanna talk about Justin Houston and questionable effort? Boy, you’re sure to love Clowney then!!

Generally, yeah. He's in prime years, but if you're right, even better. You could probably afford a 2nd tier WLB compete with DoD in that case as well.

You can just fill SO MANY holes if we get out from these albatross contracts is my point. If we're overhauling the defense, then let's OVERHAUL THE DEFENSE.

If you're gonna go with the traditional 43, yeah Clowney would be an option. He'd be a monster at DE next to Jones at DT

I'm not excited to get out of the albatross contract with one safety only to jump back in on another.

Just draft some guys at safety

Clowney would be AWESOME in Spag's defense, but unfortunately the cost is way too prohibitive. You can't give him the kind of contract he's gonna want when you're paying Houston and Berry big money and needing to invest another significant contract in the secondary this off-season.

the guys at RGR Football speculate they'll just release Ford AND Houston - I guess we'll know something within about 4 weeks or so.

Don't shoot the messenger

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It wasn’t just any game. It was the Ravens game that ended up deciding if we got HFA. By far the most important of the year at the time.

Aaron Donald and Khalil Mack aren’t 30. They also haven’t missed 44% of their games the last 4 years like Houston.

Christ almighty. That isn’t worth $21 million.

Just turn his $5.6 million prorated money into a guaranteed bonus and lower his shitty cap hit to $15.5 million and figure out what the **** to do with him in 2020.

Collins wouldn't be an albatross, is 26, with his prime right in front of you.

You need some veteran playmakers, you can't just go all rookies and 2nd year guys if you're this close to a SB.

I agree EB should be gone. I was a big supporter of his but over the last 2 years the Chiefs have lost every game he's played in. Even if it only saves a hundred bucks and a spot at the homeless shelter it's time for him to move on. JH's cost/production says he should be gone. Rarely are players willing to take a pay cut/restructure. DF's 1 year production in a contract year says tag or tag/trade but not long term contract. Any/all 3 can be replaced with adequate "better fit" FA vets and save money and not get any worse overall. CJ led the team in sacks so replacing DF and JH 1.5 sacks/game isn't as hard to do as one would think.

Yup. Or just cut him outright June 1 and sign a Brandon Graham plus draft HIS replacement early on.

What is it with you ppl thinking we are only getting a second round pick? Ford led the league in pressures.. Mack got two 1's. I think at the very least we get a late 1st like GB at 30 and another pick the following year. Maybe a 3 or 4 in 2020.

Is Mack a complete liability against the run?

A lot of you guys are just emotionally attached to these individual players and aren't seeing 1)the salary cap implications and 2) the weaknesses in their game and how that applies to team defense, especially in a scheme switch.

We're just arguing in circles. We'll see how it shakes out.

What I want most of all is for Spags, Reid, and Veach to all sit down and have Veach say to Spags:
"Ok. Who do you want to keep, who do you like in FA, and what do you need from the draft?"

I don't want to see them just sit Jordan Lucas on the bench. He's a good young player and needs to be playing.

If they really are considering going after Landon Collins, then they need to cut Berry post June 1st. Tired of his drama and not knowing if he's going to play one day or another. I liked Berry when he was healthy, but time to move on . . . . .

I would imagine that's exactly how it'll happen.

Mack is a complete player. Ford is not. He's one dimensional. Granted, he's very good at the one thing he does do well, but that's it.

Putting him in the same sentence with a player like Mack is laughable.

Well, he also made quite a few game changing plays in that Ravens game.

yeah, everyone just looks at sack totals, but there's a whole lot more to the game.

1. Completing a tag and trade is going to be difficult IMO.
2. I do think something could be done with Green Bay. They need to make a move, have an extra late first round pick, need a pass rusher, and Ford's position coach now resides in Green Bay.

So give me pick 28 or whatever it is and I'm bricking thrilled if I'm the Chiefs. And before a bunch of you guys start dreaming about trading up, its in the best financial interest of the team to draft two guys they can control for 5 years on the cheap.

Spending crazily on free agents isn't ideal as you just don't know how those guys will transition into your locker room and what not.

The reason they're in this mess is because of drafting like shit. Until that changes, it won't matter

I agree with this.

Only trade up if you’ve got a Derwin James like situation where someone is falling way too far to pass up on.

Yeah, it you can have a couple first rounders and a couple second rounders, that ridiculously cheap labor for the next 4/5 years while you're having to pay some of the guys currently here.

That's what they're gonna have to do.

Collins and Lucas don't play the same position. SS/box safety is more prime Berry years/Sorenson the last few years. So imagine all the blown tackles and blown coverages on TE's and backs in that SS flat not happening anymore.

Lucas/Watts are pretty much FS in my opinion. Centerfielders.

2 deep zones would have both safeties playing the same positions as FS basiclaly.

Cover 3 could be a flip-flop. Cover 4 and they're all essentially CB's.

Agree 100%. This is a great defensive draft. You could change your entire team like the Colts did last year.

And you would have $15 million free to spend on a player.

I'd trade up for a pass rusher or a QB.

With where the Chiefs are right now, they need quality and quantity. I wouldn't trade up unless there were an absolute game changing guy there and with this current draft class, I don't know about that when you're getting that late in the draft.

I haven't watched the video so they might not have said it like this but if Veach just outright loses Ford and Houston without getting anything in return it'd be about time to start looking for a new GM.

If you had 4 picks in the top say, 60 picks, you could come out with a starting CB, a starting ILB, you're starting C, and a safety/DL/TE.

They aren't all likely to hit, but damn that's some cheap potential talent infusion.

Do we swap our original intentions (most likely)
and actually draft a CB prior to Safety, since Nelson will most likely be gone?

I like this. :thumb:

Why?

You save a shit load in cap - what if they tag Ford and can't find a trade partner - what then? look for a new GM?

It's great to have cap space for sure, but you've still got to fill those spots with players once you cut these guys. And those guys have a lot of potential value.

The league is desperate for pass rushers, and most of the FAs this year won't hit the market. There is absolutely no way a team wouldn't throw at least a 3rd our way.

I don't think it's very likely if they tag Ford that they'd be unable to find a trade partner - just playing devil's advocate. I admit I don't know a lot about this process - but they're saying that there's a possibility we just release both Houston and Ford.

Collins is actually 25. ;)

I do NOT want to extend Houston. The cap savings this year just isn't worth it if you ask me.

Let Houston play out 2019, then walk away basically unharmed. The last thing we need is another Hali situation causing us grief.

I think the difficult question is whether or not to tag Ford. Man if you can tag and trade, then great. If not, we become very draft dependent on the defensive rebuild.

Yeah I’m out on doing extensions for Houston or anyone who looks like a year to year player at this point. That will just **** the future cap up.

Either take a pay cut, leave the contract as is, or release him.

I agree with this. I have grown tired of the EB drama. Just cut our losses and move on, please.

Why is everyone so high on Landon Collins? Didn't we learn our lesson on paying a box safety that much?

Look around at the safety market the last couple offseasons. Don't go pay some crazy amount when you can find some good ones for peanuts.

That is how it should be.

I'm guessing they tag Ford, renegotiate Houston and sign Earl Thomas in the offseason. That's about all they'll do.

That's the issue.

It's not emotional attachment to these players, it's a lack of faith in Veach in my part.

Yeah, I get why they released Marcus Peters - my only stipulation was that Veach find a suitable replacement (not a slot corner), through trade, FA, or the draft.

He failed spectacularly at that task. I am not at all confident that Veach could replace Ford AND Houston's production in a single offseason. He'd be risking taking away this defense's final strength.

What about this..

-We are stuck with Berry. Nothing we can do this year.
-Restructure Houston’s pro rated money to drop the cap hit to $15.5 million.
-Trade Ford to the Packers for a 2nd and 4th.
—Ford isn’t Mack and has injury history. I’d take a 2nd and recoup our 4th. I think that’s realistic.
-Cut Sorenson.
-Trade a 2nd rd pick for Xhavier Rhodes, Jalen Ramsey or Patrick Peterson (whoever the **** it is you like).
-Extend Jordan Lucas to a fair lower tier deal (next year is a contract year for him).
-Sign one of Tyreek or Chris Jones. Low cap hit 2019.
-Use 4 picks in the top 100 to find good players in a damn good defensive class.

I'm on board for trading for a big corner like that.

I don't think they'll trade Ford for anyting less than a first. He's not a complete player, but he is elite in one area that's pretty important.

I don't think we need to draft a C. Why couldn't Reiter or Wiley start at C?

Wiley is too tall I think to play center. Reiter maybe, but he was pretty meh there.

What does everyone think about Speaks' potential in this 4-3 scheme? I am holding out hope that he could turn into a decent player there.

Or Kpass?

both are much better suited for the 4-3.

I will jizz all over town if we're able to land Rhodes.

Yes, that's another reason why I am holding out hope that those 2 players can be good contributors, possibly even starters.

Earl Thomas isn't coming here unfortunately

How the **** do you know? :rolleyes:

Depends on the $

Oh I don't know the fact that last year he ran up to Jason after Cowboys game and told him to "Come get me"

The fact the Cowboys have Kris Richards?

The fact the Cowboys have more cap space?


I mean I don't want to burst your bubble, but ET wants to play in Dallas.

https://s3media.247sports.com/Upload...26_8084149.jpg

sure its not a done deal yet, but ****......

I don’t think they have the money dude. Sure they have a lot of money right now, but all of their good young draft picks need to be paid. They already said they plan on paying Dak this Spring. Demarcus Lawrence is also a free agent this Spring.

Their list of FA’s in 2020 is crazy too, so have to start paying 1 or more of those guys as well:

Amari Cooper
Jaylon Smith
Byron Jones
La’el Collins


That’s a lotta cash. Don’t forget they are gonna have to break the bank on Zeke too. Gurley made the RB go up last year and LeVeon is about to make it even higher.

Oh I agree,

But Romo/Witten/Dez are all coming off their books.

They currently have 54 Million in cap space without extensions or restructures.

That doesn't even include cutting Sean Lee (They probably will) which would add another 7 Million in cap space.

61 Million in cap space......

Exactly.

The Cowboys might have a lot of cap space now, but after they sign the guys they need to sign, they won’t have nearly as much.

Don’t rule out the 49ers. Sherman has been trying to recruit Earl AND he’d get to stick it to the Seahawks twice a year.

They have $115 million in unaccounted cap space in 2020, assuming that the cap doesn't go up between now and then and they have no rollover from 2019.

You have to account for who they are going to cut June 1st too....

I could see them cutting the following realistically.

La'el Collins 6.5 Million Cap Savings
Sean Lee 7.0 Million Cap Savings
Tyrone Crawford 5.9 Million Cap Savings
Allen Hurns 5.0 Million Cap Savings
Terrance Williams 2.0 Million Cap Savings

Add that to their 54 Million in Cap Space, that would be 80 Million in Cap Space.


Cowboys are sitting pretty good.

P.S. Tyrone Crawford would be someone I would like us to take a look at.

I think the more logical outcome that we'll be looking at for the top 3 right now are:

1. Berry stays at his cap hit and has surgery in the offseason. Best case scenario....he starts the year on the PUP list and comes back Week 6.

2. Restructure Houston's contract. If you convert $10 million of his base salary into a signing bonus...then it gives you another $5 million in cap space this year and you can cut him after the 2019 season ($6.5 million in dead money vs. $17.5 million in cap savings).

3. Tag and trade Ford. I don't trust him to play DE in this defense and hold up against the run. He was good in stopping the run with his speed from the backside of the play but he wasn't great when teams ran right at him. Realistically....I'm looking at pick #44 in the 2nd round and a late 2020 pick from the Packers.

So we’re basically giving Houston a 10 mil raise then cutting him next year... Clark will pay 10 mil upfront for Houston but cut him next year. Ya no

He played 4-3 at Auburn and was where he was the best at

It's not a ****ing raise. It's converting his base salary, that he was already going to get, and spreading it out over this year and next year.

You're only allowed 1 June first cut IIRC.

They'll probably cut those guys for sure, but they've got a lot of guys coming due for sure.

Plus I'm guessing jerry pays Dak like a legit franchise QB which is gonna suck up a bunch of space.

he was wide 9 there which is the same as what he's been doing in KC for the most part.

Did Hootie change the name on his old account to The Franchise?

Only because I come across it while reading but it said teams are allowed 2 June 1 cut

I ain't "shooting" a gat damn thing; makes all the sense in the world to me; Ford is a shitty one-trick and Houston as a true, hand in the dirt DE? Child, please.

Go Spags! Go Chiefs!