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-   -   MU ****Official Mizzou Football 2024-2025 Thread**** (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=354732)

'Hamas' Jenkins 11-16-2024 06:49 PM

They should have never kicked that FG on 4th and 1 in the beginning of the quarter. The run was working, and Drink turtling up cost them.

Coaching was miserable today as it has been all year.

Pasta Little Brioni 11-16-2024 06:50 PM

Sack on a 3 man rush and picked on a checkdown needing 70 yards. Ramsfan thoughts?

Jerm 11-16-2024 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 17807740)
They should have never kicked that FG on 4th and 1 in the beginning of the quarter. The run was working, and Drink turtling up cost them.

Coaching was miserable today as it has been all year.

The snake oil salesman marches on…..

Pasta Little Brioni 11-16-2024 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brioni (Post 17807675)
Field goal on 4th and inches. You have to fire him right?

Bump for Hamas

'Hamas' Jenkins 11-16-2024 06:51 PM

Batoon is absolute ****ing garbage.

BryanBusby 11-16-2024 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 17807740)
They should have never kicked that FG on 4th and 1 in the beginning of the quarter. The run was working, and Drink turtling up cost them.

Coaching was miserable today as it has been all year.

But hey according to that one dumbass he's Michigan bound, so got that to look forward to.

HonestChieffan 11-16-2024 06:53 PM

drink doing good enough for a contract extension

Mosbonian 11-16-2024 06:55 PM

Drink lost this game in the first half with pitiful decisions that allowed SC to score 2 TD's in the last 2 minutes...

Also...after MU intercepted Sellers and they ran it back to the 33....then they went for long pass play to Johnson....then took the sack loss to put it out of FG range...

Running Noel on a couple of those plays might have put us in a better position to get a FG.

Mosbonian 11-16-2024 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanBusby (Post 17807746)
But hey according to that one dumbass he's Michigan bound, so got that to look forward to.

We can only hope.....because I am sure somewhere in his post game comments he is praising Brady Cook's spunk and determination....and saying something else inane.

Jerm 11-16-2024 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanBusby (Post 17807746)
But hey according to that one dumbass he's Michigan bound, so got that to look forward to.

Someone actually said this lol?

Sassy Squatch 11-16-2024 07:10 PM

LMAO Yeah, probably don't need to be all that worried about Drinkwitz getting poached at this point.

Jerm 11-16-2024 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassy Squatch (Post 17807761)
LMAO Yeah, probably don't need to be all that worried about Drinkwitz getting poached at this point.

I’m worried that he’s not now…

BryanBusby 11-16-2024 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 17807759)
Someone actually said this lol?

Yes. Still laughing at that one.

Jerm 11-16-2024 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanBusby (Post 17807808)
Yes. Still laughing at that one.

Was it someone with any credibility lol?

BryanBusby 11-16-2024 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 17807810)
Was it someone with any credibility lol?

I feel like I can skip answering this one, as we all should know the answer.

Jerm 11-17-2024 12:50 AM

The “road to 9-3” begins now I’m told by goofs on PM….god this fanbase is filled with pussies.

Just concerned with winning meaningless games so we can say we won 8 or 9…who cares.

Sick and tired of Mizzou fans that wanna walk the walk and act like big boys but when it doesn’t happen I get told it’s still ok, hey it’s just Mizzou…we should be so fortunate.

Just ok with being ok….**** off.

Pepe Silvia 11-17-2024 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 17808140)
The “road to 9-3” begins now I’m told by goofs on PM….god this fanbase is filled with pussies.

Just concerned with winning meaningless games so we can say we won 8 or 9…who cares.

Sick and tired of Mizzou fans that wanna walk the walk and act like big boys but when it doesn’t happen I get told it’s still ok, hey it’s just Mizzou…we should be so fortunate.

Just ok with being ok….**** off.

The school sent a clear message with the Bowl Eligible T-Shirts. They are fine with mediocrity.

Pasta Little Brioni 11-17-2024 06:25 AM

Fringe playoffs on the line and you don't tackle and kick a FG on 4th and inches down 9. Ya...you fire Drink. Probably should have after LSU last year.

Pasta Little Brioni 11-17-2024 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepe Silvia (Post 17808157)
The school sent a clear message with the Bowl Eligible T-Shirts. They are fine with mediocrity.

That is really sad. Who would wear those? A god awful Beakers team is "Bowl eligible" if they win out. Not even they would wear one. Who cares about a Papa Johns Bowl berth

TomBarndtsTwin 11-17-2024 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brioni (Post 17808182)
Fringe playoffs on the line and you don't tackle and kick a FG on 4th and inches down 9. Ya...you fire Drink. Probably should have after LSU last year.

Playoffs were never on the line. Mizzou’s not even a fringe playoff team. 2 blowout losses to the only 2 legit SEC teams on their schedule. Had they beat SC, that’s likely the best win on their schedule? (maybe Vandy?) That’s sad.

Too many other 2 loss SEC teams that are WAY more deserving of a playoff spot than Mizzou. Mizzou was knocked out of consideration when they got trucked by Bama.

Pasta Little Brioni 11-17-2024 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomBarndtsTwin (Post 17808200)
Playoffs were never on the line. Mizzou’s not even a fringe playoff team. 2 blowout losses to the only 2 legit SEC teams on their schedule. Had they beat SC, that’s likely the best win on their schedule? (maybe Vandy?) That’s sad.

Too many other 2 loss SEC teams that are WAY more deserving of a playoff spot than Mizzou. Mizzou was knocked out of consideration when they got trucked by Bama.

That's not the point...

Jerm 11-17-2024 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepe Silvia (Post 17808157)
The school sent a clear message with the Bowl Eligible T-Shirts. They are fine with mediocrity.

This fanbase is delusional….someone argued with me last night that Drinkwitz and Pinkel’s ceilings are the same and their accomplishments are similar….

I’m like, what in the **** are you smoking.

I may be bias because of my dislike for him and that’s fine but JFC these people are beyond drunk on the Kool Aid…

Mosbonian 11-17-2024 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomBarndtsTwin (Post 17808200)
Playoffs were never on the line. Mizzou’s not even a fringe playoff team. 2 blowout losses to the only 2 legit SEC teams on their schedule. Had they beat SC, that’s likely the best win on their schedule? (maybe Vandy?) That’s sad.

Too many other 2 loss SEC teams that are WAY more deserving of a playoff spot than Mizzou. Mizzou was knocked out of consideration when they got trucked by Bama.


When Mizzou was curb stomped by A&M it was the indicator that this team was a paper Tiger....and the Drink was at best a mediocre coach.

The slapdown by Alabama was just the icing on the cake for the pipe dream.

I doubted they would beat Oklahoma and it took luck and an abnormally abysmal Sooner team.

I had questions as to whether or not they could beat the Gamecocks considering how good SC was playing against much better teams. Appears i was right now matter how much Beamer tried to give the game back to Mizzou.

And...I wondered if they can beat Arkansas....only time will tell.

Drink should be fired if nothing else fir how poorly he has prepared the team for what should have been the easiest path to the playoffs MU has ever seen.

dlphg9 11-17-2024 01:30 PM

Need a QB.

dlphg9 11-17-2024 01:31 PM

Need a HC that can bring in and play a good QB.

Pepe Silvia 11-17-2024 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlphg9 (Post 17808640)
Need a HC that can bring in and play a good QB.

Need another coach then because Eli will never do it. It has been the unending narrative.

Titty Meat 11-17-2024 04:44 PM

Wanting to fire a 9 win coach you guys are such ****ing hypocrites

BryanBusby 11-17-2024 05:11 PM

Actually am not advocating for firing Drink but the getting swiped by Michigan talk was silly all along.

He does need to land something at QB at some point and reevaluate the Defensive coaching staff.

dlphg9 11-17-2024 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 17810346)
Wanting to fire a 9 win coach you guys are such ****ing hypocrites

We have higher expectations than you shit stain reeruned Nebraska fans.

ChiefsCountry 11-17-2024 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlphg9 (Post 17811664)
We have higher expectations than you shit stain reeruned Nebraska fans.

You suck off that loser Gates but hate Drink.

Mosbonian 11-17-2024 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 17811859)
You suck off that loser Gates but hate Drink.

I despise them both

dlphg9 11-17-2024 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 17811859)
You suck off that loser Gates but hate Drink.

Gates is an extremely likeable dude and massively over exceeded his first year here. Last year was awful, but I'm not gonna blame him for having one really down year. If this year is like that, then I'll start bitching a bit about him.

dlphg9 11-17-2024 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 17811980)
I despise them both

How can you despise Dennis Gates. He over exceeded any of our expectations in year 1. Drink has never done that.

Mosbonian 11-17-2024 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanBusby (Post 17810538)
Actually am not advocating for firing Drink but the getting swiped by Michigan talk was silly all along.

He does need to land something at QB at some point and reevaluate the Defensive coaching staff.

Except that finding a good QB won't overcome all of Drink's shortcomings....his bad clock management, his choice for defensive coordinators, and his lack of big game awareness.

And those are just the easy thing to pinpoint.

BryanBusby 11-17-2024 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 17812089)
Except that finding a good QB won't overcome all of Drink's shortcomings....his bad clock management, his choice for defensive coordinators, and his lack of big game awareness.

And those are just the easy thing to pinpoint.

All coaches have warts. Landing a quality QB will erase most of them. Ask Andy.

Titty Meat 11-17-2024 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlphg9 (Post 17811664)
We have higher expectations than you shit stain reeruned Nebraska fans.

Thanks for the laugh I can tell you how it goes if you want to fire Drink maybe you'll get another Barry Odom!

dlphg9 11-18-2024 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 17812089)
Except that finding a good QB won't overcome all of Drink's shortcomings....his bad clock management, his choice for defensive coordinators, and his lack of big game awareness.

And those are just the easy thing to pinpoint.

Drink has some of the worst clock management I've ever seen. Last years KState game was one of the biggest **** ups I've ever watched. Just got lucky the kicker made it.

The team also seems to be completely undisciplined and they constantly have stupid mistakes. That's on Drink.

Drink is also one of the biggest douche bags I've ever seen. His obsession with Brady Cook is the cringiest shit on cable.

Jerm 11-23-2024 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 17810346)
Wanting to fire a 9 win coach you guys are such ****ing hypocrites

What does 9 wins really mean….?

It isn’t 1996 any more….who cares if you win 8 or 9 games? The playoffs are all that matter.

Every CFB season is its own insular thing now with the portal and NIL….

“Building a program” is the most overrated talking point in CFB now, how’d that undefeated season work for FSU? Sure catapulted them. No one talks about it.

Does getting to 8 or 9 wins a year by beating nobodies and mid teams yet getting curb stomped in any big game you play really do something for fans lol?

Titty Meat 11-23-2024 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 17819550)
What does 9 wins really mean….?

It isn’t 1996 any more….who cares if you win 8 or 9 games? The playoffs are all that matter.

Every CFB season is its own insular thing now with the portal and NIL….

“Building a program” is the most overrated talking point in CFB now, how’d that undefeated season work for FSU? Sure catapulted them. No one talks about it.

Does getting to 8 or 9 wins a year by beating nobodies and mid teams yet getting curb stomped in any big game you play really do something for fans lol?

I'm sure Mizzou can fire it's way to a title

duncan_idaho 11-23-2024 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 17819550)
What does 9 wins really mean….?

It isn’t 1996 any more….who cares if you win 8 or 9 games? The playoffs are all that matter.

Every CFB season is its own insular thing now with the portal and NIL….

“Building a program” is the most overrated talking point in CFB now, how’d that undefeated season work for FSU? Sure catapulted them. No one talks about it.

Does getting to 8 or 9 wins a year by beating nobodies and mid teams yet getting curb stomped in any big game you play really do something for fans lol?


It means you’re stable as a program.

Especially when it’s a 9-win team but just OK at QB.

Mizzou was within a few eyelashes of getting Jayden Daniels when he left Az State. Keep everything else where it is and add a dynamic QB to the mix, and you can ascend to legit contender status again.

Boxer_Chief 11-23-2024 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 17819607)
It means you’re stable as a program.

Especially when it’s a 9-win team but just OK at QB.

Mizzou was within a few eyelashes of getting Jayden Daniels when he left Az State. Keep everything else where it is and add a dynamic QB to the mix, and you can ascend to legit contender status again.

Think we have a shot at Daniels this offseason? He had one year left and is losing everyone on offense, it’s going to be rough if he stays

Mosbonian 11-23-2024 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 17819607)
It means you’re stable as a program.

Especially when it’s a 9-win team but just OK at QB.

Mizzou was within a few eyelashes of getting Jayden Daniels when he left Az State. Keep everything else where it is and add a dynamic QB to the mix, and you can ascend to legit contender status again.

But in all honesty....do you really see Drink as capable of taking a Mizzou team with a capable QB to the CFC?

This season was set up to have the easiest route to a possible playoff and it will not.occur...I get that the injury to Cook didn't help...but the losses that Mizzou has are big blowouts, not just close losses. That just should not occur if you have a team with playoff aspirations.

BryanBusby 11-23-2024 01:12 PM

Y'all are asking to become Florida sometimes.

duncan_idaho 11-23-2024 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosbonian (Post 17819640)
But in all honesty....do you really see Drink as capable of taking a Mizzou team with a capable QB to the CFC?

This season was set up to have the easiest route to a possible playoff and it will not.occur...I get that the injury to Cook didn't help...but the losses that Mizzou has are big blowouts, not just close losses. That just should not occur if you have a team with playoff aspirations.


Absolutely.

They had a favorable schedule but needed the offense to take another step forward to cover for an expected step back on D. It hasn’t.

Injuries to Cook have been a factor. And it’s tough to avoid blowouts when you have QBs turning it over and setting up short fields. That drove the blowout loss to Alabama.

If you put Jayden Daniels on Mizzou in 2023, and that’s the only change, they absolutely would have played for the conference title and been in the playoff field.

'Hamas' Jenkins 11-23-2024 05:43 PM

Piece of shit refs really tied one on for this game. They have to get the **** out of this conference. Work backchannels to get into the B1G, just get the **** out of this rigged, inbred ****ery.

Pepe Silvia 11-23-2024 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 17820113)
Piece of shit refs really tied one on for this game. They have to get the **** out of this conference. Work backchannels to get into the B1G, just get the **** out of this rigged, inbred ****ery.

It's Sankey. He hates Mizzou.

Jerm 11-23-2024 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanBusby (Post 17819649)
Y'all are asking to become Florida sometimes.

Are we framing that as a bad thing lol….?

Napier. who was a dead man walking by all accounts, has 2 bigger wins than anything we have and has a stud QB so I don’t really know if we should be casting stones but that’s just me….

Jerm 11-23-2024 07:17 PM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">“HEY MISSISSIPPI STATE, SHUT THE **** UP OR I’M GONNA SCORE”<br><br>Eli Drinkwitz is talking his shit<br><br> <a href="https://t.co/egNZ18FvFU">pic.twitter.com/egNZ18FvFU</a></p>&mdash; Barstool Sports (@barstoolsports) <a href="https://twitter.com/barstoolsports/status/1860484368075997663?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 24, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

BryanBusby 11-23-2024 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 17820263)
Are we framing that as a bad thing lol….?

Napier. who was a dead man walking by all accounts, has 2 bigger wins than anything we have so I don’t really know if we should be casting stones but that’s just me….

Uh, yes. They wanted to fire Napier too.

Must have been under a rock when they knocked off the defending Big12 champions with a QB that struggles to hit the broadside of a barn.

Jerm 11-23-2024 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanBusby (Post 17820272)
Uh, yes. They wanted to fire Napier too.

Ok….? It’s not like he’s lit the world on fire lol.

Just another mid SEC coach.

BryanBusby 11-23-2024 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 17820278)
Ok….? It’s not like he’s lit the world on fire lol.

Just another mid SEC coach.

Woosh. You missed the actual point, which isn't shocking.

They bitched and bitched because they didn't win enough and went from Atlanta appearances with 2 coaches to not bowl qualifying altogether and they were dire to dump the current guy before he had any chance to figure it out, too.

You can't develop a program when you want to be the NCAA Jets.

Jerm 11-23-2024 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanBusby (Post 17820279)
Woosh. You missed the actual point, which isn't shocking.

I got the point, it’s a ****ing stupid point….that’s why I ignored it.

Wooooooooooooooooooosh.

Sassy Squatch 11-23-2024 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 17820265)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">“HEY MISSISSIPPI STATE, SHUT THE **** UP OR I’M GONNA SCORE”<br><br>Eli Drinkwitz is talking his shit<br><br> <a href="https://t.co/egNZ18FvFU">pic.twitter.com/egNZ18FvFU</a></p>&mdash; Barstool Sports (@barstoolsports) <a href="https://twitter.com/barstoolsports/status/1860484368075997663?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 24, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Why?

Best22 11-23-2024 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sassy Squatch (Post 17820284)
Why?

Think it was a dirty play from MSU while we were taking a knee? I wasn’t able to see it on replay. If so, MSU can get f***ed

ChiefsCountry 11-24-2024 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 17819550)
What does 9 wins really mean….?

It isn’t 1996 any more….who cares if you win 8 or 9 games? The playoffs are all that matter.

Every CFB season is its own insular thing now with the portal and NIL….

“Building a program” is the most overrated talking point in CFB now, how’d that undefeated season work for FSU? Sure catapulted them. No one talks about it.

Does getting to 8 or 9 wins a year by beating nobodies and mid teams yet getting curb stomped in any big game you play really do something for fans lol?

Mizzou has only had 7 10 win seasons in the entire history of the program. This shows how ****ing reeruned you are.

BryanBusby 11-24-2024 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerm (Post 17820283)
I got the point, it’s a ****ing stupid point….that’s why I ignored it.

Wooooooooooooooooooosh.

So what was the point, big brains?

jjchieffan 11-27-2024 07:44 AM

What happened to Mookie Cooper in the Auburn game? That's the last game that he played. He had that big 78 yard touchdown and hasn't played since. I read this morning that he had season ending surgery this week but it didn't disclose what it was for. I don't recall what happened in that game. Can someone re

duncan_idaho 11-27-2024 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjchieffan (Post 17827541)
What happened to Mookie Cooper in the Auburn game? That's the last game that he played. He had that big 78 yard touchdown and hasn't played since. I read this morning that he had season ending surgery this week but it didn't disclose what it was for. I don't recall what happened in that game. Can someone re


He had some sort of injury on that long play (where he got caught from behind at the two and didn’t score). I don’t think they ever disclosed it, and honestly, I didn’t dig into because I was just relieved that Joshua Manning was about to get Cooper’s snaps.

jjchieffan 11-28-2024 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 17827618)
He had some sort of injury on that long play (where he got caught from behind at the two and didn’t score). I don’t think they ever disclosed it, and honestly, I didn’t dig into because I was just relieved that Joshua Manning was about to get Cooper’s snaps.

That's right. I forgot that he didn't score. Thank you for the information.

ChiefsCountry 11-28-2024 05:47 PM

Passed Arkansas equipment truck this evening in Osage Beach as it's heading towards CoMo

Sassy Squatch 11-30-2024 04:03 PM

Jeez. Routine tackle and it seems like this poor kid ****ed something in his neck or back.

Best22 11-30-2024 04:10 PM

Does Drink/Moore realize you can throw the ball in this weather?

BryanBusby 11-30-2024 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Best22 (Post 17834603)
Does Drink/Moore realize you can throw the ball in this weather?

No.

Boxer_Chief 11-30-2024 04:18 PM

Yeah five attempts in a half wtf they’re throwing it fine

BryanBusby 11-30-2024 04:39 PM

Think I'm ready to see a new Defensive Coordinator. Haven't really been thrilled with this dude all year.

Pitt Gorilla 11-30-2024 05:06 PM

Bull**** holding call. Complete bull****.

BryanBusby 11-30-2024 05:19 PM

What a rat **** to not even review

Pepe Silvia 11-30-2024 05:39 PM

Mizzou gets held to a lot of FG's.

Sassy Squatch 11-30-2024 05:55 PM

Slick play on the 2 point attempt

BryanBusby 11-30-2024 05:55 PM

That was a sick conversion.

BryanBusby 11-30-2024 05:57 PM

What the **** is this shit

Sassy Squatch 11-30-2024 05:57 PM

The hell was that?

Pepe Silvia 11-30-2024 06:04 PM

Did you see that hold that Arkansas got away with at the end?

mlyonsd 11-30-2024 06:04 PM

Wow, what a game saving play.

BryanBusby 11-30-2024 06:07 PM

Another W against the cousin ****ers

dirk digler 11-30-2024 06:15 PM

Proud of this team and Cook. He was a very above average college QB. Would had a chance at the playoffs if he was healthy

BryanBusby 11-30-2024 06:21 PM

They would be in the playoffs if they weren't liquid ass on Defense at the end 2 weeks ago

dirk digler 11-30-2024 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanBusby (Post 17834718)
They would be in the playoffs if they weren't liquid ass on Defense at the end 2 weeks ago

That is probably true. Would have like to see this team in the playoffs..oh well.

Mizzou_8541 11-30-2024 07:04 PM

Drink has raised expectations that Mizzou fans are disappointed with a 9 (maybe 10) win season in the SEC.

I hope he stays as long or longer than Pinkel.

Woogieman 11-30-2024 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou_8541 (Post 17834759)
Drink has raised expectations that Mizzou fans are disappointed with a 9 (maybe 10) win season in the SEC.

I hope he stays as long or longer than Pinkel.

He has, but to get to the next level, he has to build a team that can walk through the tunnels of Tuscaloosa, Athens, Austin that is prepared to win, and believes they can win. Shitting the bed like they did against A&M and 'Bama was unacceptable. Losing on the road isn't unacceptable, but laying down like an old dog is...they were down 21-0 when they got off the bus. Getting it right at QB goes a long way to pulling off the occasional big upset, which they've never done outside of James Franklin @ Georgia, before they were dominant.


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