I do think they’d have been better off had Watkins fallen down at the 5 instead of the 1.

Could have ran some clock and used the pats timeoits

You’ve gotta try and get your offense the ball back there. If you get a stop and go score you can double up around halftime

Defense didn’t get the stop thouhh

Just a hunch, but I think this is going to be a very interesting offseason. I foresee a lot of movement and interesting decisions being made.

Reid and Mahomes are tied at the hip and that's something we're just going to have to deal with. That said, I don't think that's a bad thing. You have to remember, the dynamic between a QB of Mahome's caliber and a head coach, even a stubborn one like Reid, is going to develop and change over time. This relationship is YOUNG. We only see absolutes because the kid is such a natural and it already feels like he's been here longer than he actually has.

What chance honestly at the time did you give us to stop Brady on 3rd and 4. 10 percent would be generous. Bad TO when you are not the Ravens D.

I think I agree w/ that feel.

honestly,

I have a hunch that they're going to cut bait on ALL of the big 3 on defense. Houston, Berry, and tag and trade Ford.
(before anyone yells about not being able to cut Berry, nobody's been able to clarify if a non-football injury, which this would be would prohibit cutting him.)

I have a hunch that maybe they might want to give Spags a clean lockerroom, no distractions. Sign a couple veterans that he likes to fill holes, draft heavy on defense again and go at it.

I don't want to hear about 'but the passrush' because Ford is one dimensional and not worth the money he'll get, Houston is injured half the time, and Berry all the time.

I can't even begin to express how much I love this idea. Keep Jones and Nandi, and let everyone else fly if they aren't a tight fit.

I agree, but I honestly think they will extend Houston. I think he fights marvelously into the 4-3 as being able to play either DE position as well as the SAM.

If I am Veach, I am working hard to extend Houston, converting his salary to signing bonus and thus guaranteeing it, but bringing his cap number down to around 12M for the next three years, which seems to be appropriate value.

I'ith don't'ith disagree'ith...

I know where you’re coming from but I for one don’t expect them to blow it up in defense. Paylor said to “just know that they’re going to do everything they can to load this team and this defense up for a run in 2019”...

Getting rid of all of those guys doesn’t jive with that IMO. I think they’re going to try to rework some contracts while keeping them around. Maybe not Ford, we’ll see.

Yeah, they're not getting rid of Ford or Houston, and they can't get rid of Berry.

"If you're not a fit, we WILL acquit"!

I'm not opposed to keeping Houston or Ford if they fit with the scheme and will accept the money we offer. And as it stands, we DO NOT have to come begging hat in hand to pay either one of them. So if they want to stay, great. If they don't, great.

There's only ONE player on this team that gets to make fans and the GM chew their nails at contract time, and it AIN'T either of them. And I hope Spags tells Berry, "I can handle my OWN cheer leading and pep talks, thanks".

well, loading up for a run in 2019 doesn't necessarily mean the older players that have been here for a long time are part of that.

Ford I highly doubt is back; I fully expect a tag and trade. There's no loading up at all other than the draft if you have to pay him $15m plus.

If you cut Houston, June 1 you get what, like $15m back? You can get a real good, say, RDE for that.

I

If you cut Sorensen June 1, you can get almost $4m back.

If Berry's injury is non-football, I'm not sure he's guaranteed, and if you cut him June 1, you get almost $9m back.

That's $28 million, give or take. You can extend Jones and Hill with that, plus make another move or two, if they're thrifty.

Leaving the estimated $36 million according to Spotrac (I've heard it's actually less, like $28 million or something, including incentives?)

How else are you going to load up except let most of these guys go?

you've got enough for two maybe 3 quality starting level guys depending on how you structure their deals, and maybe snag a June 1 casualty or two but probably nothing major if you extend Jones and Hill, which they should.

I'd say you MIGHT keep Houston on a restructure deal, turning some of his money into signing bonus if you want to keep him, and that might be smart. He is often injured, though.

But wouldn't you rather have, like maybe Brandon Graham and Landon Collins?

I'm not saying I'm positive; just that I have a feeling maybe Veach is going to try to cut out all the old contracts asap and move on.

Or that if you aren't a good fit with the scheme that we're going to keep you around just because you have an arrowhead on your helmet.

Great thing about this setup is that Spags has more than enough juice to call it and set it up as he damn well pleases, and I sincerely doubt you'll see Clark Hunt or Andy Reid trying second guess him or cut him off at the knees.

Yeah. I mean, again, I'm not pounding the table, I'm just saying, I kind of have a feeling that maybe if the older vets don't fit or Spags isn't crazy about their fit, that Veach might really like to get them off the books.

They're not his guys, after all, either. And those salaries kind of handicap the grocery shopping. It'd be different if Berry and Houston were usually healthy and Ford could manage to not get blocked by a WR on a running play.

Let's hope next year we better define what "clock management" means for Andy. Lord knows the Pats TOP suggests they've figured it out.

God I wish we had a BB on our team! It sucks to admit, but the man is the GOAT of coaching... Hands down, from cheating, to twisting the rules, to cutting slack players, to apparently knowing/understanding both offense and defense, to knowing just how to attack another team's weaknesses, to getting the most out of retread/last chance players, he's the GOAT.

I’m not holding out hope that Berry’s heel is going to be ruled a non football injury. Why would it be?

And, we need to keep in mind that the quality of FA's knocking on the door just went up several notches as well. We have options. WAY more than most here might think.

He definitely made the most of his first SB win, can't argue that. He parlayed that shit HARD.

Why would it be a football injury? It's got nothing to do with football activity. It's not an ACL, or a torn achilles, or something like that. It's literally an abnormal bone growth.

Again, I'm not claiming anything definitively, just raising the question and looking for an answer.

I don't know what will happen of Berry but Ford and Houston will be playing for this team next year.

They are going all in next year.

I expect Veach to be aggressive on the FA market.

I would even like him to trade a high pick in 2020 to get a good player or to get another high pick in the upcoming draft, just like the Saints and Rams did in the last offseason, two teams who were themselves going all in coming into this season.

Veach needs to get it into his head that this team will field a top 10 D next year. Literally. No excuses.

I don't think Dee Ford is a three down player on a top 10, 4-3 defense. He's a one trick pony that's easily neutralized.

I'm totally down to keep Houston if he restructures.

If you keep Ford and Houston doesn't restructure, and you can't do anything with Berry but keep him, you've got like $28 Million dollars to play with and that's counting the need to extend Hill and Jones.

I don't think there'll be much activity in that case.

I’m sure it’ll be really easier for Berry and his reps to claim that the deformity is a result of playing football.

Maybe. I don't know. I've seen no discussion of that outside this board, just lots of pundits saying he might be cut.

Berry's issue is caused by playing football. He could live day to day with it for the rest of his life, but the flare ups are from playing the sport, thus it's the sport that is causing it. If he gets surgery to try and correct it, it is because of PLAYING football. (keyword: playing). So I'd imagine they could easily argue: an injury that happens from playing football at the highest level on planet Earth.

If he's just hanging out doing a 9 to 5 crap office job he would never feel it.

Fans have been saying this about Andy for 2 decades.

He isn’t changing.

Those times when he ****s up badly? That's the O-coord overriding the head coach in his brain.

If all of us pitch in a few bucks, perhaps we can purchase Andy a decent wristwatch.

Engrave the back with this:

"From your Fans, please use or learn how to use this. Your Welcome"

They can’t do anything about Berry’s situation this year. They can do something about one of Houston or Ford.

Houston is the biggest cap hit on this team. I think that is going to be at the top of Veach’s agenda this Spring.

LMAO :clap:

Let Ford "test the market", then come crawling back.

You seriously underestimate how desperate teams are for pass rushers, even one trick ponies like Ford.

guys like him are going to be paid like elite stars on the market this year.

Teams with a tons of cap space and not enough elite players to pay. Thus the next tier gets paid. Enter: Dee Ford.

It's going to be like the NBA offseason from a few years ago when teams were overpaying for bums.

Ford hits the market he ain’t coming back

Mcaj22 is right on that. Some of these teams have so much damn money, guys are gonna get paid. Guys want to do all they can to hit the market

Yes, and if you get a stop you give the MVP almost a minute to get into field goal range or a long toss to #10. Hindsight is 20/20.

You can’t play with the clock so much when you’re behind because it could come down to a 3rd and 10 and a drop changes everything

You’ve gotta worry about scoring first and worry about time and the other team later.

However, once they got down into the red zone, or for sure at the 1, they should have atleast tried to run a few plays to burn some timeouts

Nobody on the planet thought we were gonna stop 3rd n 4 but Andy. No hindsight, just pure pant shitting.

Dee Ford is underappreciated by some fans.

He was a beast this year.

TAG AND TRADE. Profit.

I'd take a few less sacks for a guy who was decent against the run.

It's a lot like Peters was minus the attitude problem. A one trick pony.

Everybody gets enamored with sacks and INT's but there's more to the game, and more to being a well rounded part of a successful unit.

Underappreciated for what exactly? Being a huge liability against the run? Lining up offsides to ruin our chance at a Super Bowl?

He wasn’t as bad against the run as you guys are making him out to be

There was a play in the first quarter of the Colts game where it was a sweep right and a WR literally blocked down on him and ran him completely out of the play.

A ****ing WR. Not even a TE.

He's real bad, man. He just is. All an offense has to do is run at him, and it's money in the bank.

I'm not saying he's a terrible player, I'm just saying he's really one dimensional and a problem in every other area. Those guys can still be useful but not at $15 million plus a year.

Dee Ford hits the market he’s getting over $100,000,000.

Tag him, let him play another contract year and then let him walk and get a 3 or tag/trade him next year.

OR tag him and trade him, get a nice 2nd round pick for him, and take that $15 million to FA and sign a nice well rounded NFL player to play DE in a 4-3 as well as draft another one with that 2nd round pick.

Maybe even just trade him straight up for another player that fits your scheme.

You know, so maybe teams can't run for 150 plus yards per game on us.


I don't know why people are so opposed to the idea. Did no one else watch him get destroyed on running plays all season long? Or more to the point, for the last four years?

-and before y'all jump on me- no, I'm not saying he was the sole reason we couldn't stop the run, but he was certainly a part of it. It's just not in his game to be physical at the point of attack. it's just not.

I’d keep him for a 2.

and pay him $15 million dollars? **** no.

You just like him as a player, that's cool, but no way he's a 4-3 DE, he can't set an edge and play the run. No way he's a WLB or a SAM, he can't cover or play the run.

SO, you can put him in on 3rd and long. For $15 million dollars.

I'm glad you're not the GM.

Tag him, trade him, take your #2 probably or if you're lucky and a couple teams want him, maybe snag a #1 (but I doubt it). Go sign Brandon Graham, a true 4-3 DE with about $10 million of that, sign a 2nd tier WLB for the other $5 million to compete with O'Daniel, and draft a Jaylon Ferguson with that #2 pick to rotate with Graham and take over for him next year or the next after that. Or, you can have Dee Ford. I mean really, man. What sense does that make? If we're going to overhaul we need to get BETTER. We need GUYS. A few of them.

I'm telling you I seriously consider it much more likely that Houston agrees to a restructure, turning some of his money into signing bonus to get his cap number reasonable and stays with Ford being tag and trade. I'd say that scenario might be like 50/50. I'd say there's like maybe a 10% chance Ford is here, he's just too ****ing expensive for what he offers when we're retooling with a new scheme that he doesn't fit in.

^^^^^^ Great news all the way around. My plums are jiggling with delight.

If it can be done. If people want THAT level of "service" so bad, then they can put ALL their chips on the table as we rake them in!


There's just too much goddamn WIN going on here.

13 sacks and 8 forced fumbles while leading the league in pressures.

what's wrong with THAT level of "service"?

It's fine. If he was an average run defender I'd be down with it, but he's not. He's shit against the run. It'd still be fine, if he wasn't going to cost $15 million when we've got about $28 million TOTAL to try to build a defense that doesn't blow goats AND get extensions done for Jones and Hill.

Something's gotta give y'all.

A veteran 4-3 DE that puts up, say 8 sacks BUT plays the **** outta the run is more help to your defense, especially in playing complimentary football with THIS offense.

Again, how nice of Dee Ford to attain "contributing asset"-status on his way to a contract year! Let's just forget everything that came before, and roll out the Brinks truck!

And then, when he gets paid and injures his little dinky-boo-boo again, you can remind us all of what a great value it was!

Pass.

Would you pay him "market value" just to be a pure pass rusher? Because that's all he's got.

I don't get it. I just don't understand.

ITS A TALENT PROBLEM, they say, and then they'll pay Dee Ford $15 million to be a situational pass rusher and have NO MONEY to sign proven veterans at other positions of need.

Oh, and you can pick up a nice pick too, probably a #2. so you could draft like, Jaylon Edwards, who's a killer pass rusher that also is a good run defender from Lousiana Tech and a proper RDE in a 4-3.

I think we should move from him.

I just disagree with sdh assessment of his production

Speaking of trucks containing large cargo, another poster linked up the "Alex Smith signs 4 year contract thread" earlier. I decided to take a trip down memory lane for shits and giggles, and let me tell you; there's a WHOLE "Brinks truck" O' Moron in THAT ****ing thing...damn.

Enjoy!

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=286110

Apparently ford made some comments at the pro bowl about being excited to get in and meet the new dc and get back to his auburn playing style days

Sounds like the tag is coming

Yep.. saw it live.

That may not mean anything. The team may not have sorted out everything they want to do yet.

At the same time, Spags is always a guy who had a lot of success with defenses that were loaded with pass rushers he could rotate through. That's plays in Ford's favor.

Spags is gonna unleash a defense so aggressive and malevolent in nature, that Big Jim Johnson himself is gonna piss himself in the grave

CONVINCE ME I'M WRONG

He also said "I hope I come back". Spags hasn't been here for even a week. I HIGHLY doubt that such a decision has even been brought up for discussion, much less relayed to the player.

IF...he's allowed to do it his way, yes.

He’s gonna be disappointed when we tag and trade him.

He doesn’t fit well in the Spag defense and he’s a valuable asset in the NFL right now. Chiefs need to swing him for a good pick. The Packers (who have the Saints pick at the end of the first round) actually make a lot of sense now that Mike Smith is there and they are absolutely desperate for a pass rusher . . . .

I don’t hate Dee, but he’s had one good season and has had injury issues during his time here. Not worth a big contract.

Make it happen, Veach!

He's a productive pass rusher; it's just that it's all he is. He's a liability against the run or if asked to cover.

That would still be fine if he wasn't going to cost $15 million plus. Even that would be tolerable if we weren't in need of NFL starting quality talent at a few other positions.

We really don't want to HAVE to start like 4 rookies.
edit-I guess it'd be like 3 by my count, at SAM, one CB, and a S. Plus whoever's going to play on first down and any down less than 4 yards in Ford's spot. I mean it just doesn't make sense.

Jaylon Ferguson.

Yeah, he’s a stud. I’d trade Ford in a heartbeat to get cheaper on the defense seeing as it is limited what we can do with the albatross Houston and Berry contracts. A low 1 or high 2 could nab a promising DL/Edge player - this draft is deep at D-line.

If Houston and Berry give a single **** about winning anything here in KC, they’ll rework those contracts. I’m cautiously optimistic that something will happen with both.

Don’t kid yourself.

Berry will milk his ailments for every red cent. Why have we not heard of a scheduled surgery for him? His drama will drag into the Summer, then Fall, and we will be back on a day to day status with him as he motivates from the sideline. Houston is his best bud, so however Berry goes, so does Houston.

They are no longer leaders of this team. They will soon become like DJ, Hali - great players, but could not win when it counted. They need to decrease, while Mahomes, Kelce, Hill, Jones increase.

I don't see why Justin Houston is lumped in here. Houston was one of our most impactful players on defense this year.

His cap hit is $21M for this year. Can save $14M if he’s released.

He was really good down the stretch, but $21M good?

I'd argue he's 14m good over 16 games, which is our maximum return value without him.

I don't think we can exceed his value by letting him go (at best, we may be able to replace it).

He's also repeatedly come through in big moments and worked to lead the team. Not sure why the negativity about Berry is being applied to him.

Not so much negativity as just hoping KC can get some cap relief there. If he’d play for even $16M, it’d help a ton.

He probably can’t get more than that on the open market.

The players that are currently under discussion are the exact type of players that BB will pull out his unmerciful, fine-tooth comb to assess, and will cut any and all dead weight and dollars without even blinking.

Which is what WE need to be doing.

Hope we make him a nice deal to lower his cap hit next Fall and then extend his contract to a fair deal for an older player.

Probably something like turn some of his salary in 2019 into guaranteed money.

This is what pissed me off about Houston. Dude had to be motivated by Justin Hamilton to make a play? We paying $21 mill for that shit?!?!

Love the talent but he’s old and we can’t be paying him that much anymore. He is way overpaid for what he is at this point.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Am I the only person who remembers the multiple questionable effort plays and games Justin Houston had? Heck he had a game that was very important, that he had to be publicly challenged by a dude who hadn&#39;t been active all year to quit dogging it!</p>&mdash; ChiefBearcat (@Chief_Bearcat) <a href="https://twitter.com/Chief_Bearcat/status/1089692771865243653?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 28, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I am 100% behind this.

If it were me, I’d say goodbye to EB this off-season, trade Dee and re-structure JH. If JH doesn’t re-structure I’d hold onto him one more year.

If JH wasn’t still a top 3 impact guy, I’d be willing to part ways - but not when we’re already losing our top rusher from the other side (Ford). If I trusted Veach to draft I’d feel differently, but Speaks hasn’t shown he can be a suitable replacement for anyone so far, so the defense would have to add even more enormous holes to fill.

Then **** Aaron Donald and Kahlil Mack, too. They have plenty of questionable effort plays per game.

I sure hope Speaks can succeed in this scheme. IMO it would appear this would be a more natural fit for him, similar to what he played in college. He is the same size as Aaron Donald, so playing him at DT wouldn't be out of the norm. He'd be quicker off the snap than your average DT. Speaks needs to watch tape on Donald, call his ass up in the offseason and workout w/ the guy. Prob wouldnt ever happen but I can wish.

I've always hated the pick...I still currently do but Spags hire has given me a slight glimpse of some hope. Always thought he was horribly out of position, slow, fat, lethargic, and not built in anyway for a 34OLB, just a stupid pick, especially since the Chiefs moved up for him IIRC, and considering it was a massive reach to begin with.

I dont understand tagging Ford. He's absolutely TERRIBLE in run support. I just cant see the guy putting his hand in the dirt. I mean he wouldn't have to drop in coverage, but I just think it's a dumb idea to tag a situational 1trick pony, unless they plan on tagging/trading him? Usually you'd want a deal in place before making that move.

Had Veach drafted Donte Jackson instead of Speaks the Chiefs might be singing a different tune right now. Regardless, he knew we needed a couple of cornerbacks in the draft and yet he did nothing in the earlier rounds to help this team.

mostly agree, although I think Speaks is your LDE. I have suspicions that a move to the 4-3 was always the plan.

The only reason you tag Ford is to trade him, which I'm pretty sure is also the plan.

JH they will try to restructure for cap relief, and if they can get that done, he's a fine RDE.