You're firing the GM for one player move? Jeez, just imagine if we'd really committed to a crappy QB and drafted Sanchez. We acquired Cassel and Vrabel for a 2nd, you guys would really be out for blood if it'd been a 1st round pick.

Really? The second best QB to come out of the 2010 draft is Colt McCoy. Give me a ****ing break.

Ricky Stanzi
Matt Moore
Kyle Orton
Mark Sanchez
David Gerrard
A broke-dick Brett Favre
Rex Grossman
Jimmy Clausen
Ryan Mallet

Just to name a few.

The QB is the most important position on the field. Everything else is gravy. If you do not have a franchise QB, then you keep looking for one. Pioli saw Matt Cassel practice and play and said to himself, "That is my franchise QB." Yes, Pioli should be fired for that alone.

Yes, all of these QBs are better than Cassel. They're not franchise QBs, but they would have been cheaper and better than Matt "I graded out perfectly" Cassel.

Whiffed of some great QBs?

And here's what I think happened with the QB situation last year, just my theory, I think it was Haleys idea to go into the season with Palko as the top back up, and when Cassel went down Haley stuck with Palko. Pioli then picked up Orton to try and force haley to sit Palko, he didn't do it, goodbye Haley.

Most of your list he couldn't bring in.

Outside of the guys that haven't played, we'd be bitching about all those guys too. None of those guys make KC a threat. A franchise type guy hasn't been available to acquire yet.

After the 2009 season, he should have said, "I ****ed up," and then cut Cassel and attempt to fix the situation. However, signing the guy to a $63 million dollar extension before playing a down should have been a fireable offense on the spot.

At least they wouldn't have been coddled and paid like a franchise QB.

Agreed. That contract is holding us down. If only we had $30mil in cap space.

They are the Cheaps, but spent too much money on trying to fill the QB position. Failed miserably, but they threw some coin at it.

It's not really that they are cheap. It's that this team is pretty young. Young players are cheaper.

I agree with that, but not everyone sees it that way. They let Bowe or Carr walk, I may change my tune.

No Cassel fan, but I can understand starting him for every season but this next one.

2008- He comes in with no expectations and does better than expected, gets franchised, Chiefs trade a 2nd for Cassel and Vrabel.

2009- Below average on a bad team 16 TDs 16 INTs, but just first year. If he were to repeat this performance I think he's gone.

2010- Best year team goes to playoffs. It's hard to say after a year like 2010 he needs to go.

2011- reverts to 2009 play, and finishes year on IR.

Now, he's got to go.

I agree both players need to be back, as I understand it, that's why we kept the cap room, to resign our own.

I think I'd keep Cassel around for at least the first few games of 2012. Unless the Chiefs want to go all out and get Manning then its the same old shit of being just out of reach of a top QB in the draft and no one to get excited about in FA.

Otherwise I'd go after Osweiler in the draft and let him and Stanzi battle it out in the offseason, which would be the first full offseason for both of them. Whoever wins the job I'd bring in after the first 4 or so game if Cassel is still shitting himself, and finally closing the book on Cassel.

jd, what are your thoughts on Orton?

Same as Cassel?

I think I'd rather have him than Cassel, but if Manning is healthy thats the way you go.

I think he wants to start and isn't going to sign with the Chiefs.

I'd rather have him, but it's unrealistic to think that he is going to be guaranteed the job which is going to send him elsewhere.

Probably so.

Where do you think he ends up?

I coudl see Orton in Seattle or Miami.

I could see him going to pretty much every team looking for a starting QB, minus the Colts. Then depending on who gets RG3, whether its Cleveland or Washington, I could see him going to the team that missed out.

Probably right.

I think Washington would be a good place for him, as he could run shanny's o. I think Vince Young could run that offense to a T, but he seems to be a headcase.

I think Flynn could end up in Miami, Orton in Wash ( lotta people think Manning is a Skin but I don't see the fit), and Campbell somewhere. I dunno really where Manning fits.


Hell I guess KC is as good as any, but I don't see him wanting to come here.

How could you possibly know that? It's only the second year and most of them never saw the field.

Oh, give me a ****ing break. Ball wash much?

Haley was on the chopping block well before Palko ever entered the picture. And apart from one and a half quarters, Haley didn't bench Palko in favor of Orton.

There is no ****ing way you Pioli WASN'T the most to blame for the abortion of a QB depth chart last year.

Huh? Most of the ones that are ever going to see the field have.

2010 sucked.

Bradford
Tebow - awful
Clausen - replaced
McCoy - about to be replaced
Skelton - his fire burnt out quick
Kafka
Webb

Anyway the Browns wanna stick with McCoy?

I'm sure thier fans want better.

I'm sure they do, but they don't deserve it.


Maybe Matt Flynn will go to the Browns.

The Brown draftabulators will loooove that I'm sure.

I'm not a McCoy fan by any stretch. But he has by far the worst receiver corps in the NFL and it's not even close. Most of those guys would be lucky to be able to make an NFL roster.

Holmgren is a QB guru. I can guarantee you he is going to move heaven and earth to get either Luck or RGIII. Shurmur is a QBs guy too.

Flynn would be a perfect Brown and Orton would be a perfect Skin, Manning a perfect Dolphin.

You're Haleys bitch. Got it.

Not really. Cleveland desperately needs a guy like RGIII--their receivers are god awful so they need a guy who can use his legs to buy time. RGIII is also perfect for a Shanahan system. I don't think Orton would fit into either of those two teams because the receivers are so bad in Cleveland and Shanahan would prefer not to use a pocket QB.

I think you're right about Manning in Miami. He's played in a dome his entire life. One thing I just thought about is I think it's more likely he goes to a dome team or a warm weather team.

I think Vince Young would be a perfect fit for Shanny 's offense.

I agree that Cleveland needs RGIII, but bringing in Flynn would allow them to use all thos draft picks to put talent around them. That offense needs playmakers in the worst way.

They could get Richardson and the second best wr with their first round picks if they signed Flynn.

They have 2 firsts. They could get both RG3 and his boy Wright in the first.

They are gonna have to spend those two firsts to get RGIII. He's not making it past 2.

They could. But given how much Holmgren and Shurmur love QBs, I'm very hard-pressed to believe they wouldn't put QB as their absolute top priority this season.

No one knows that. Its easier to say trade up and trade down than it is for it to happen.

Besides, they are picking 4th. If you look at the draft chart, which teams seem to follow fairly closely, they could give up their 4th, 2nd round, and 3rd round to move up to 2.

No, you're making wild-eye conspiracy theories that go against the face of almost everything we've been hearing.

You claim Haley was fired because of Palko. Nevermind that there is talk that Pioli was not only practically ready to fire Haley before this season, he was purposely making Haley's life a living hell this year in order to find a good excuse to get rid of him.

You're claiming Haley demanded that Palko be on the roster and that Pioli not bring any new QBs in. Find me a single shred of evidence that suggests that to be true. Last time I checked, Pioli is the guy who has the most power by a mile on what free agents they sign. If Pioli looked at the roster and truly believed Palko was the best backup QB they could find, then that is 1000% his fault.

Haley's fault was that he played Palko longer than he should have. But that's not nearly as bad as Pioli's fault of believing he was the best available backup the Chiefs could have brought in.

Speaking of wild-eye theories.

They are definitely in the driver's seat. I know people want to believe that the Chiefs would have any chance in hell of getting RGIII. The sad reality is, in order for the Chiefs to outmatch the Browns, they have to not only match the Browns' offer, but also throw in compensation for a trade down from 4 to 11. That is going to be some hefty, hefty trade value.

Even if they did have to give up their 2nd first pick to move up, which would also be close to equal value for a move up to 2, Wright might still be on the board.

Everything I've seen lately has Wright going in the first somewhere.

Per Gretz. A guy who has plenty of sources and wouldn't post this material if he didn't have credible information:

I think he deserved to go because of Palko. Orton could have started the Bears game, but he was brought in to run a flea flicker?

I think youre mistaken that Pioli saddled Haley with Palko. Haley could have said Palko needs to be cut, Haley could have gone to Stanzi be bore even thinking about putting in Palko. Sorry, I don't put the whole Palko fiasco on Pioli.

Did Haley deserve to get fired?

Did Pioli buy the concert tickets and bitch later that he actually went?

Haley made his life miserable here because the dude was a ****ing headcase and the job was over is head.

You're telling me that the GM of a franchise didn't have the power or the guts to overrule the coach about a player that was so glaringly bad? Pioli didn't even have to second-guess Haley. He could have signed a veteran 4th string QB for cheap and let Haley decide which 3 QBs he could have kept. JFC.

And you are an idiot if you think Orton was only brought in in Chicago to run a flea-flicker. He was brought in to replace Palko. Orton should have started that game, but the timing of Orton coming into the game made it very clear that he was the QB from that point forward.

Pioli signing Orton was his attempt to overrule haley. Haley had control over the roster, you can guess that Pioli told Haley who was making the team, and the depth chart, I think you're wrong, but you can guess that. The wheels came off for Haley.

I think so. I actually liked Haley and made no secret about it. In fact, I think Haley (if he continues to get opportunities) will eventually be very successful in the NFL. He has a lot to learn, but I think he probably will.

Nevertheless, he should have been fired. I honestly think he knew the guillotine was soon to fall and his last acts were to piss on Dr. Evil's Italian suit pants. The bottom line is that Dr. Evil wasn't going anywhere and those two nutcases couldn't co-exist without tearing down the cafeteria.

Besides, Haley didn't have the image that Clark wanted in a head coach. That meltdown against the Jets was the last straw for Clark.

Anyhow, Haley is now in the past. It's somebody else's deal now and we'll see just what kind of grip Dr. Evil has on Romeo's Juliets.

FAX

No the GM doesn't tell the coach who to start, it's not a question of guts, it's not his job.

There is a ton of smoke that they wanted to fire Haley after the playoff loss to Baltimore. A game that was lost, by the way, because Pioli's golden boy had one of the worst 3rd quarter playoff performances of all time. If that's true, then it is absolutely outrageous that they wanted him to be fired.

No, I don't think Haley should have been fired. I think Pioli should have at least given him a chance by surrounding him with quality free agents. I think Pioli is easily the guy you blame that Palko/Stanzi were the only two plan B QBs on the roster. I think Haley's track record proved that he deserved a 4th year, but that the 4th year should have been his make it/break it year. If there was no playoff win in 2012 and his players were relatively healthy, then yes, you can him.

I'm realistic about Haley's shortcomings. I know what they were and there are several flaws. But it's more than a little disturbing that there is so much smoke that the front office was going out of their way to do everything they could to get Haley to fail so they'd have an excuse to fire him. I would have liked to have seen Haley operate under a real QB and without the front office meddling in every last thing Haley did. I think he at least deserved that much.

The question isn't about who to start. The question is why the **** Pioli walked into the season thinking that he could walk into the season with a 5th round rookie (in a strike-shortened season) and a 6th-string QB as his backup QBs.

It's not a good thing when your GM has to pull a hail mary on your BACK-UP in midseason. He was incredibly lucky, in fact, that Orton was even on the market at just the right time.

And the only game where Orton should have started under Haley was against Chicago. He didn't, but he eventually went in to replace Palko in the second quarter. Again, you are getting riled up over one quarter.

Haleys track record of 19-26, frequent blow out losses, and meltdowns on the sidelines made him deserving of another chance? WTF?

Maybe he thought that because he wanted to take Haleys word? It's the coaches team. It's the GMs job to build that team. He built it and it sucked. Time to tear it down and find a new architect.

zilla is insane.

There's no quit in the little fella, that's for sure.

FAX

No, I'm getting riled up over the fact that Haley had the power to not start palko for even one game. Palko shouldn't have started one game. You can say Stanzi wasn't ready, but I'm willing to bet he would have faired better than Palko. A 5th rounder that I don't think is any better than Stanzi started a playoff game for the Texans. That bugs me.

Oh great. Thank you for addressing the detailed points I laid out.

Haley was apparently set to be fired after the Baltimore game. Address that.

There is a ton of smoke that Haley was being harassed by the front office in order to find an excuse to get Haley to quit. And Gretz has plenty of examples of it. Address that.

And we all know how critical the QB is. Scott Pioli forced Haley to win with Cassel for 3 years. And with zero QB depth.

Not to mention just sheer back luck with injuries.

But you're right. We lost our games in 2012 because of sideline meltdowns.

Sorry, I just spit out my beer.

Pioli knew what he had in Palko. He shouldn't have to "take Haley's word." On the same token, he should have known what he had in Cassel. Maybe if he kept his blinds up, he might watch a practice where Palko struggles to throw the ball 15 yards.

I can't believe anyone would say that the coach has more power than the GM on free agents.

Thing is, there was even a way Pioli could have brought in a veteran backup QB without forcing him on Haley. If he signed a veteran as a 4th string QB, you force Haley to make the decision about who his top 3 are.

The blame starts from the top. By a mile, the decision to walk into the season with Palko as a backup is on Pioli.

Do you find yourself at Haley family reunions or something? Just curious as to why you blindly defend a clear idiot.

But I agree. It does start at the top. Haley should have never been hired in the first place.

In the end, the GM put us in a situation where we had to start a 5th round QB who the coaching staff clearly didn't think was ready, and a backup QB any GM would have known didn't belong on the 53-man roster.

When we get really riled up because a 5th round rookie in a strike-shortened season, that is a lot more a front office mistake than a coaching one.

Because I hate it when coaches get blamed for mistakes made by the front office. And it's even worse in this case when we're hearing some truly disturbing stories about a front office purposely trying to ruin the coach that works for them.

Haley has flaws. They costed us several games. But by far, the biggest culprit for this season was bad luck with injuries and horrendous decisions made by the front office to address the QB position and QB depth.

I'm still not sure where you are getting this from, but w/e.

Pioli and Haley couldn't get along. The end. They didn't purposely throw him under the bus. He did that himself.

Palko? Haley. Blowing up on the sideline? Haley. Going to concerts during the season? Haley. Presenting themselves as a homeless person? Haley. But I guess I can see where the FO put him in those positions... :rolleyes:

EDIT: Forgot to add running a soft camp/preseason resulting in getting blown the **** out to start the season. Then running a soft week after winning 4 straight and getting blown the **** out by the Dolphins... Haley.

None of us were there, so who knows. But I'm willing to bet if Haley had made it very clear they needed a better QB to back Up Cassel, they would've made a move the season before the season.

No, we do know.

Pioli signs free agents. He has absolute authority to overrule the coach on any roster decision. And again, he could have easily signed a veteran QB as a 4th string QB without forcing Haley to keep that guy on the 53-man roster. Plus, the Chiefs have a guy named Ray Farmer whose job is to know what veteran QBs would be best suited for the Chiefs. That's his full-time job. Haley doesn't have the ability or time to scout other NFL QBs the way he does. Plus, coaches are often overly loyal to players. Dick Vermeil wanted Tony Banks to start but the front office forced Trent Green on Vermeil. When the talent gap is that obvious, it is absolutely on the front office to step in.

There is simply no excuse on Pioli's end to not have brought in legit QB competition.

I'm sure Crennel would love to know that as he was scouting at the Senior Bowl.

No time to scout players. Plenty of time to party at a concert...

The Chiefs were ready to fire Haley after the Baltimore playoff loss. You don't find that a little ridiculous?

What followed was a year-long smear campaign. Who the **** cares if he watches a concert with his players? Why was an insider going to incredibly great lengths to leak the story about Haley getting pizza with his family? I suppose Bill Cowher should have been fired right away, because he was by far the worst I've ever seen from a sideline tirade standpoint. These were really petty excuses, not legit reasons to fire a coach.

The fact that you had to add legit football reasons to the back-end of the post show how petty it became. To address those points, Haley made some big mistakes. Especially in experimenting with the soft offseason. Big mistake, but not fireable. In terms of the losing streak, as I've said many times before, if you truly believe that the Chiefs had elite talent without Charles and Berry to make the playoffs this season, then so be it. I don't think they did. Against Miami, the thing that stands out to me by a mile was that they were sending blitzers at our QB and we consistently had too few blockers, which is 100% on the QB for not making the pre-snap adjustments. What I saw in the games that followed was the same.

While Haley made mistakes, he was crippled by his QB.

Oh, that's good.

So then let's fire our scouts because Romeo can figure everything out by watching one week of QBs play football.

Let's fire Ray Farmer because Haley should pencil in 40 hours every week to watch film of NFL QBs in the league and other players who might be a fit for the Chiefs.

Ray Farmer and Scott Pioli are by far the guys who know best what QB options in the league are available that can be better than Tyler Palko.

Just as long as Haley doesn't take any blame for not adjusting the game plan.

You must think being a NFL coach is a 9-5 job.

Gonna put you on ignore now.

Tell Haley I said hi.

No he does not, you're give Haley too little power in this analysis. How do you know Vermeil wanted Banks to start? Who told you that, Vermeil? Did you read it? You don't know any of this. You're a fan that decided Haley got screwed. The GM signs players and retains players, yes he kept Palko on the roster, but he does not make game day starting decisions.And it wasn't his decision on the depth chart. As far as I'm concerned Pioli thought Palko was a third string, practice squad QB, and nothing more.

You must think scouts and pro personnel guys sit around their desk and eat cheetos.

Scott Pioli and Ray Farmer are personnel guys. They have jobs because they are supposed to know what talent we have on the roster, and what NFL QBs are available on other rosters. That is their FULL TIME JOB and they get paid a shit ton of money for it. Haley only knows what he has on his own roster.

Why do you think head coaches always fail when they get personnel responsibility? It never, ever works. Didn't work for Holmgren. Didn't work for Shanahan.

This is so ****ing ridiculous. That people are actually making the suggestion that the GM isn't the main one to blame for the guys signed on to the roster.

There are plenty of reports that said Vermeil wanted Banks, Martz is the guy who wanted Green, and Vermeil also didn't want Marshall Faulk.

If Pioli thought Palko was a third string practice squad QB, then you are saying he was comfortable walking into the season with a fifth round rookie in a strike-shortened season as the backup should Cassel get injured. None of that looks good.

I don't know what's so hard about this. The GM decides who the team signs. He's the guy who has ultimate authority over the final roster. In the end, he gets input from Haley, but he's the guy who makes the final decision. The fact that the Chiefs walked into last season with the 3 QBs they did is very largely on Pioli.

Whatever, you're stuck where you're at, I'm where I'm at.

I think you'll find it very hard to find any other person besides JD who actually believes the coach has more power in personnel decision than his boss, the GM.

Okay. We've been over this. Signing not starting. Yes, there should have been a better option to start the season, and that's on Pioli. Having Palko as the back up wasn't on Pioli. Do you agree?

No, having Palko at backup wasn't on Pioli. But again, he forced Haley to go with either shit or very likely shit. Not a great situation to put your coach in.

And again, I don't buy into the idea that Haley preferred Palko over Orton. It seemed clear that he made the QB switch in Chicago only to have him injured. I think it's a wild conspiracy to suggest Orton was only in there for one play only.

The only problem with the Palko decision was that he started Palko over Stanzi. But clearly, it felt like a lose-lose situation.

Haley set records for blowouts at Arrowhead. It was pathetic how unprepared the team was at times and starting off the season. The guy was in over his head.