Very true.

Its good to feel skeptical under that circumstance or scenario.

Im worried that if they break the bank for him, he won’t be as good.

I think now is a good time to trade him. Trade Ford for a really good corner or safety. Do it now while his value is high and given that passrushers are a premium in this league and I think there will be a few teams that will covet him. Will the Chiefs do it? Im not so sure.

But if they did, I wouldn’t be opposed to that at all.

They’re gonna transition to a 4-3 anyway. My logical choices for players to depend on to rush the passer in the 4-3 under would Houston and Jones. But Houston is injury prone so it may be wise to draft for DE depth? Sorry to drift a bit off topic here but I think they can afford to trade Ford. They could sacrifice a bit of passrush for some secondary help. Sometimes you gotta give up something to get something.

But a lot depends on wether or not you have purchased his jersey. Many of CP members have based their opinion on such event.

I agree fully.

Let's be brutally honest. When we picked up this kid, we were expecting pressures and sacks galore. Everything about Dee Ford's skill set and measurables had us thinking that we were getting DT Jr. WITH THE EXCEPTION...that we would probably be lucky to get about 1/2 of that level of output overall because DT is, well, DT.

And we didn't even get that. I know injuries have played a part, but they have played TOO much a part, and I'm just not comfortable extending this player.

If Reid wants to play "big cuddly papa coach" over on offense, he's earned that right. But our defense needs to be meticulously scrutinized and mercilessly torn apart like Wolverine on a bloodletting rampage.

Lil' Chiefy and his jersey collection be ****ed. :D

Neither am I. His overall resume doesn't spell consistency. He's had 2 good years out of 5. His best year happens to be his contract year which who knows if that is a coincidence in that he is improving? or if he is just motivated by the money factor?

I wanna elude to what you were saying earlier about injuries playing a part, I wanna comment on how that has made him inconsistent and not durable.


Plus he is a very one dimensional player and not a complete player at all. Can't stop the run, can't cover, injury prone of course....Also, not a smart player. Nobody will forget him for lining up offsides in the AFCCG but also remember one game when we were playing I think it was the Dolphins and he run backwards away from the running back...I was like WTF?


Too many red flags with this player.

not when it was a bunch of asshats talking about what an overrated piece of shit he is. It's not like people were saying, " he's just not experienced enough"-
it was all "he got 80 points scored on him at Texas Tech!"

Over****ingreaction Planet.

On gamepass there's a 20 minute "film session" with Spags where he talks about the various zone coverages, I just watched it.

I don't think he's an amazing DC, but just hearing him say things like "if corners are your strength then you can play coverage XYZ more" or "we want to hide the fact that we are playing cover 3 from the QB pre snap, because if the QB knows what you are playing he can always beat it" makes me think he will be way better for the Chiefs than Bob Sutton.

I realise I'm probably setting a very low bar with "better than Sutton".

This gives me a lot of hope.

Now let's help Spag and have a great offseason, Veach.

But-that's literally the bar. If he clears THAT bar, we're in the Super Bowl and probably winning it.

I think the chances are, he'll be considerably better than that, but if he's only that this is a successful hire.

I also just watched the first half of the Giants first game of the 2017 season, away at Dallas.

They seemed to do a good job on D, kept the run game from Prescott and Elliot mostly bottled up and made a few tackles for a loss. Kept the Cowboys to a punt and two field goals on their first 3 drives, then conceded a touchdown at the end of the half due to a ticky-tack DPI penalty on Jenkins.

The Giants offense had 1 first down in the first half I think (I was fast forwarding it).

Doesn't look so bad so far.

Yeah. That team unraveled pretty quick due to a competely inept HC.

I really think we're going to be pleased with Spags, I really do. Whenever he's had a stable HC and organization, he's done well. I don't think that's all that weird-I think 90% of success in the NFL from individual players to coaches is about the situation they're put in and what/who they are surrounded by.

I would like to see Derrick Johnson hang up his shoulder pads for good and come on board in an assistant LB coach capacity, sort of groom him in a way that we're not dependent on him being successful right now, but as he learns can take on more responsibility. I do think he'd eventually make a good coach, and so does Reid.

I’d be curious of how he lined up their front 4 on most passing downs. Did Snacks Harrison play a bunch or just early downs? Because it could be an indicator of how they may use Nnadi

When the Giants had that group of DEs back in 07-08 they would go to a formation with nothing but pass rushing DEs at all 4 spots on the DL.

Tuck and Kiwanuka at DT, with Strahan and Umenyiora at DE.

I’ve mulled this over a while now.

Positives to Spagnuolo hire:
- Regarded as a great teacher of both tactics and technique. He is sound in his defensive philosophy which does allow his teams to make “adjustments” as players are usually well versed in assignment football.
- Has extensive knowledge/experience coaching defensive backs and linebackers. These position groups need the most work on the Chiefs roster. No more blown coverages at the goal line on game winning plays.
- Spagnuolo’s scheme will be SIMPLER for players and verbiage will not be cumbersome. Players’ skill sets will be catered to, and this defense will attack more with 1gap responsibilities for the front 7 and less read/react tendencies we saw from Sutton.
- Spagnuolo’s experience as a HC gives him better insight into personnel and I would suggest he might have more influence in the draft/free agency than the brass will ever let on. Spagnuolo is well-regarded by players and organizational personnel at all levels. He is connected, and can have a say into how he envisions this defense taking shape.
- Trust. Reid will trust Spagnuolo to get the job done. He’s been in the league a long time and knows how to coach.

Negatives to the Spagnuolo hire:
- The conversion to a 4-3 Under scheme will cause the Chiefs to have a difficult offseason. Hard decisions on players like Ford, Houston, Ragland, the secondary, and an ailing Eric Berry will mean a lot of turnover. I worry more about culture “buy-in” than scheme/execution. A lot of nrw faces will mean some growing pains.
- Time out of the league. Spagnuolo will not forget how to coach, but I am curious if he used his year out of the league to sharpen the saw, or rather, take a break. Is he hungry? Or is he just happy to be employed again? I think working with a contender with the league MVP should be motivation enough.
- While a new voice in the defensive locker room should be inspiring and motivating, the fact that players seem to love “Spags” is arguably an eventual downfall of his too. He has been accused of being too loyal to his players in the face of a need for discipline/accountability.
- Statistical record of work. Mediocrity might be the operative word. Maybe at this point, the Chiefs and their fanbase gladly accept mediocrity.

All in all, I think this hire can ultimately bear fruit. I think Spagnuolo is better equipped to know how to play complementary football, and his tenure and experience in the league can be an asset to Veach and Reid in bringing in the right type of players to make this defense respectable again.

Good post :thumb:

I'd probably have to watch it again to be sure, but Snacks played 47 of 74 total snaps and the first 2nd and 10 I found he was in.

EDIT: I'm talking about the Giants at Dallas 2017 game here, the film room piece had lots of random clips from different games to illustrate concepts that I don't even know what year they were taken from.

Definitely. I came away with a couple of things from that video:

1) Not only will we have a plan, but we'll have a backup plan and probably several variations on a theme going in to each game. I don't know about creativity, but we WILL have strategy, and sound strategy at that.

2) Communication. From the way he works the board explaining concepts to the way he addresses players on game day in the heat of battle, Spags has a very balanced and assuring confidence of the non egotistical variety that I believe will work great here. Unlike Buttons, he's going to coach these guys up, get them motivated, AND stay engaged with them on the sideline.

Completely agree with #2.

How often did we see Sutton talking to/coaching up players on the sideline? Spagnuolo builds relationships and that is why a majority of his players go to the wall for him.

I read something earlier where Spags has met with some college coaches like Urban Meyer to learn about defending the spread offense since it's working its way into the NFL. I don't know how much of that he did or what else he did but at least it sounds like he didn't spend the year in his easy chair in front of the TV.

Well....duh? It's like like anyone is opposed to having a top 10 defense. But a top 16 is more than good enough to win the Superbowl. I don't think anyone would be mad if our defense was #5 or anything like that. We're just being realistic.

I couldn't BELIEVE what Houston said about Sutton when he was trying to compliment him on a play call. When you start adding up 1000 little things like that, it's no wonder this defense was so completely lost and with no identity whatsoever.

If I were a D-Coord, I would look at the Chiefs and Arrowhead in particular as the creme de la' creme of NFL defensive coaching gigs. If you can put together and coach up an effective unit, you are going to have a LOT of success here defensively. The symbiosis between a killer defense and the home stadium is a living, breathing entity that no other franchise in the NFL can match when all of the elements are perfectly aligned.
That's why I got so pissed when I would read people posting nonsense about "defense not being that important" in todays high numbers passing game. And people thinking that Mahomes was going to successfully TD pass eleventy billion times to a Super Bowl victory this season. And in the end, what did it all come down to in regulation? A sloppy, undisciplined defense with no properly channeled aggression and no identity that couldn't get a stop on a fading, 4th quarter Tom Brady. Marty's WORST unit would have iced that game.

So we've made the change and we may struggle a bit with the scheme change initially. But in the end, we're going to be a hell of a lot better than we may think right now.

No shit. And I would LOVE to see him take the same approach on defense as Reid has on offense in terms of bringing in a defensive spread analyst, and any other assets that he may need to make sure that we're staying current and moving forward.

Anthony Barr is a free agent. He would wreck shit at SAM.

http://www.espn.com/blog/nfcnorth/po...dictate-itself

What did Houston say about Sutton?

They're going to have an overhaul in general, Barr is probably out, they have 4 highly drafted CB's to the point that there is a serious rumor Xavier Rhodes is on the block and can be had reasonably cause they want to dump the money.

The fact that Rob Ryan was a huge improvement over him with the Saints is a bit alarming.

Cos I don't think much of Rob Ryan. He is the lesser of the Ryans brothers.

That Saints thing was part of bountygate and all that, really hard to judge there.

Houston went over to Bob to compliment him on a play call, and Bob just stood there shaking and staring off in to space as if Houston wasn't even there. He wasn't engaged in any other action, he was just...lost. Out of it.

True, but there are a LOT of variables that come in to play with the Saints situation as well as the other "down years" that Spags has had.

Me? I'm electing to focus on those two rings the man possesses. Piss on Rob Ryan. :)

I thought that was Chris Jones? Maybe the same thing happened to him, but I saw a mic'd up thing with Chris Jones where he attempted to compliment Sutton, and Bob just looked like a frail old man that absolutely did not belong on a football field. You know, when you are an amped up football player you might get a little physical with your celebrations, Bob looked terrified. I'm serious. He looked like totally frightened. Weird actually.

You are correct, it was Jones. I don't know how I got them confused. Wait, I was thinking of Houston who said in reference to Bob, "we ain't going NOWHERE with this mother****er".

LMAO

Two?

Did he win one as a position coach or something with Baltimore?

The Giants had a good defensive run in a postseason under Spags. They were middle of the pack over the year, but Tuck, Strahan, and Umenyiora dominated.

He's a great DC like Joe Flacco is a great QB. HE had a good run but has pretty much sucked the rest of the time he's been around.

We'll see. I can't say I'm against a radical shake up, I'm just not remotely impressed with his resume. Short leash. I would have liked more turnover on the staff.

He got fired. It was enough for Payton.

The last time he was DC, in 2017, his defense was terrible.

I'm not mad about it, but I just don't see much cause to approach this with anything but skepticism.

NFL Network hammering Andy Reid on his hiring of only "his guys." They talked about how Andy doesn't want anyone to overshadow him and the offense. They ended the segment by saying "remember 95% of superbowls have been won by head coaches that DON'T call the offense.

Well, Andy Reid's guys have done pretty well, I'd say.

Anyone who thinks Reid is our problem right now is ****ing high.

Does he have weaknesses? Sure. All coaches do. But Andy is not our problem, he brought stability and an honest to god franchise QB to The Chiefs. Some people are ****ing stupid.

If we had hired some unknown....then they’d be giving him shit for not wanting to work with a guy who had control. He only wanted someone who was going to answer to Reid and only Reid.

Look, Andy considers coaching to be teaching. He likes teachers. Good teachers educate and motivate.

He doesn't like a bunch of macho bullshit posturing ala Rex Ryan or Jack Del Rio. He doesn't like bluster and bullshit. He likes teachers. it's why his assistants all do well when they leave. Good teachers make good coaches make good players.

If you want macho alpha male bullshit, go be a fan of Rex Ryan's team, or Jack Del Rio's team. Oh, that's right, they're both out of coaching AGAIN this year. I wonder why that is? Maybe it's because players tire pretty quick of bullshit-and that stuff is ALWAYS over-compensating bullshit.

Someone here had mentioned in passing that he had two to his name, though they may have been mistaken. I get the skepticism, but compared to where we finished out in the regular season, we literally can not do worse.

Rex Ryan ran as innovative and creative defenses during his time with the Ravens and Jets as the NFL has seen in the past two decades. To simplify his success to 'macho bullshit' is dense AF.

This whole "If you disagree with anything the chiefs do, you should go cheer for X team" is the same garbage people barfed at me when I was repulsed by the Matt Cassel trade. Spags isn't the holy grail of defensive educators. What the hell are you even on about?

HIs defenses are very bob suttony... by that I mean fundamentally unsound.

not specifically aimed at you. I'm responding to asshats that just want bluster and actually advocate guys like Jack Del Rio because he's...I don't know...an asshole i guess.

I think Ryan's a tool. His shtick has worn thin around the league it would appear.

That said, I disagree with your take on Spagnuolo.

I loved the thought at first when he was rumored, then soured quite a bit but I'm coming around again.


I love that he's a former HC, DC that has SB winning quality defense history. He will have complete control of a defense with Reid as the HC and I think you need this. I really liked the thought of a younger guy like Chris Hewitt or Kris Richards but are they ready to control everything on one side of the ball while they overhaul a bad defense? There aren't too many names that I'd trust to do that out of the coaches available.

I also think the talent that the Chiefs have in the front 7 fit a 4-3 better than a 3-4. Hitchens comes to mind. He flourished in a 4-3. DoD could be a stud WLB. Ford can play Weak-Side DE. I think Chris Jones could be Aaron Donald in this defense as a 3 Technique. He would have only 1 gap to worry about. Nnadi and Williams fit the 1 Technique well. Speaks fits the strong side DE MUCH better than an OLB. Hell, he could probably fit in well as a 3 technique as well. I've seen an article saying Houston could play a SAM LB, but I'm not sure...I think i'd just cut bait unless he wants to renegotiate. Kpassagnon is built like a 4-3 DE and played that in college.

As far as his statistical record, I think it looks a lot better when you look at it with context. He took over a horrible defense with the Rams, they played horrible the first year but the next two years improved to middle of the pack. I'd also throw out the saints bounty gate year as well because that team was messed up. The 2017 Giants were an absolute wreck as well. Mcadoo lost that team pretty quickly.

Problem isn't Andy right now.

It's Veach

Andy's weaknesses are SEVERE. Dude is definitely a HUGE ****ing stumbling block that Mahomes and the rest of the team will have to overcome.

Gifting touchdowns to the other team calling timeouts for them, and being ever so kind enough to make sure and leave some clock for the other guy to try to come back when youre going to score and take the lead.

Situational football is Andys weakness. It has destroyed him in huge games his entire career.

If you think that we dont have to build a team with overcoming Andys penchant for shitting his pants in huge games in mind, YOU are ****ing high.

Guys a ****ing idiot when it comes to simple things that need to be done to win games. Dont call timeouts for the other team, dont leave time on the clock for the other team. Simple shit a novice Madden player grasps.

The only way Andy EVER wins a big game is if we absolutely blow them out, and his idiocy on the sideline never comes into play. In essence the other team basically has to just not show up.

If the game is close, my money is on the other coach.

Quality post.

Holy ****ing shit. I cant believe there are people that complain about us scoring too fast. No coach is going to say "Hey now take it easy and go slow. Dont throw it deep and run off as much time as possible". You ****ing idiots act like a scoring drive is guaranteed. What if the drive stalls and you just wasted a couple of minutes getting to the 50 and lose the ball. Games over. God damn that "scoring too fast" is such a ridiculously stupid take. I honestly have no clue how some of you ****ing reeruns manage to even create an account on here.

Well we did score too fast. So there's that.

When you are trailing there is no such thing as scoring too fast. You take what you can get

0 points and 32 yards in the first half and some people don't realize Reid is part of the problem.

Why? He's still an unknown. GM's first drafts can generally be thrown out plus they didn't have a first rounder....because of the great drafting of Mahomes, who's discovery can largely be credited to Veach.

Veach didn't force Sutton to run an outdated and overly complex system with a coaching staff that struggles to teach and reinforce basic technique. He didn't sign 2 horrible contract extensions to EB and Houston that strangled the cap.

He signed Watkins to protect Mahomes. It worked. Yes, he was injured again for what 6-7 games? If Ford lines up 4 inches back then that signing looks amazing with the game he had against NE.

He signed Hitchens, who had a good career in Dallas. Suttons horrible scheme can be blamed for his decline but Hitchens will have a great year next year with Spags.

Personally, I wonder if the Chiefs had planned on moving away from the 3-4 all along this year. If that's the case, then Veach was brilliant. Hitchens is a better 4-3 LB. Speaks is a 4-3 DE. DoD is a 4-3 WLB. Nnadi and Williams fit a 4-3 and a 3-4. KPass is a 4-3 DE (Dorsey guy).

Ragland doesn't fit the 4-3 but he was traded for 2 seasons ago now to fill a huge need in Sutton's scheme. I don't mind it at all. Low risk trade. The Irving trade was a good trade who looked surprisingly good outside of being against all world Aaron Donald.

I really liked the Watts pick but it's unfortunate he got hurt. The Lucas signing was great but Sutton refused to play him. Scandrick was a good signing for the big need we had. Ward was a tremendous trade. I like the Fuller trade, who started to play better as the season wore on.

Veach has the next few drafts before I'll start judging him but I'm fine with him so far. He had one draft after being named GM and didn't have any draft capitol. This draft is a huge draft coming up. If he extends both Hill and Jones then he will be ahead of the curve unlike Dorsey, who waited too long on both Houston and EB.

It was more than Reid. They couldn't get on the field. The first two plays, which were running plays with Williams, were horrible IMO. I thought they played a little tight on offense and maybe that's why Reid called them. The line was horrible and Mahomes missed a wide open TD (Wiley missed a block so Mahomes faced pressure) and took a bad sack so they should have been tied 7-7.

We were in the ****ing redzone with just over 2 minutes left. You cannot possibly be so obtuse as to suggest clock could not have been run here, forcing timeouts out of NE and burning the 2 min warning before scoring the go ahead td. Intelligent coaches do not leave time for the other team, and certainly not over 2 min with 4 time stoppages and going against the worst d on the planet.

OR..... You pull your head out of your ass and do to Brady wha was done to Mahomes. Hold the ball. Put the game in the hands of the mvp instead of BOB ****ING SUTTON.

Run the time off, trust the best facet of your team to win, not hand it to Sutton against Brady and pray.

We could get better at ball control, it's true. Of course, when you've got a Tyreek Hill, sometimes that little slant pass goes for a TD, and what are ya gonna do?

We're never going to be great at running the ball when the opponent knows we want to run the ball; it's a factor of Reid's offensive line schemes. They're not maulers, they pull and trap and move. They're not straight ahead road graders. I'll take that, as the creativity there is part of what makes the offense explosive.

As for the defense and compaining they're on the field too much-hey, make a ****ing stop. I mean, really. That's the problem with a bend-and-break defense.

And by "in the red zone" you mean on the 2 yard line, with 2.03 on the clock. There's just not a good option there, even if Mahomes takes a knee you're only running 3 seconds off the clock.

If they were at the 10 or 15 and didn't try to run it in over 3 downs I would agree with you.

Or maybe BB just out-coached him? Definitely brought his "A" plan, no doubt about it. I've seen the Chiefs start slow, but that was a complete neutralization.

Yup. Well, GOAT's are what they are for a reason.

We lost the game partly because they marched back down the field and scored. Hate it all you want, we scored too fast.

OR, you know, the defense could've gotten a stop. Which they kind of did, (cough, Dee Ford).

shrug.

I mean, you know, it's funny that we've gone from not being able to score ENOUGH to OMG we scored too fast.

There are a lot of "OR" scenarios. How about, OR we could have not sucked on O for the entire first half.

Face it, giving Tom Terrific that long was a contributing factor. And the D sucks too.

I mean, you can **** around and end up not scoring, and lose that way too.

And you can NOT get a defensive stop, and lose that way.

And you can have a dumb penalty or two, and lose that way.

And you can have your killer offense shit the bed for a whole half, and lose that way.

If you need stop to win, you need a stop to win. We were an offsides penalty away. Or a bullshit roughing the passer penalty. OR we might've, oh, I don't know, tried actually covering Julian Edelman on 3rd down in overtime.

There are a lot of ways we could've won the game, and a lot of factors went into play in losing it.

Still, after decades of not being able to score enough points to win, I'm hesitant to blame scoring too fast as the primary reason.

Disagree, when you are the third best scoring offense in the history of the world and you are throwing all over a Patriots Defense in the 2nd half you have to think about the GOAT coming back on the next possession. We ****ed this very scenario up twice this season in big games.

or...OR....

you could ask your defense to do their job and get a ****ing stop. I mean, they get paid, too.

OR they could have fired Sutton when it was clear he was trash.

The ORs just keep coming.

No argument there.

It just sucks.. And now Tom Terrific is all but guaranteed another ring because there ain't no way the NFL is going to underofficiate Rams, and Tom Terrific and BB are going to exploit the shit out of it.

And Tom will probably come back next year to withdraw even more from the NFL's "we love anything Tom" account.

In b4, "but but but but they suspended Tom for cheating...." Yes they did, then they got right back to sucking his dick.

point of clarification to all who've been follow this thread the last few days-

I slipped on the ice taking the trash out the other day, fell flat on my ass and slid down the 30 ft. driveway with the trashcan on top of me and so have been stuck on the couch with a ****ed up back with nothing to do. Probably a little extra salty, as pain does have that effect. (It's okay, you can laugh at me, I have plenty.)

I don't mind anyone saying-"meh, not excited about this hire". There are legit concerns.
.
I don't mind anyone saying-"hey, I'm cautiously optimistic about this hire", as I am, although I've been cast as some blind true fan that never questions the management or coaching of the team. (Not true, by the way, if you look back at my posts over, oh, the last SEVENTEEN YEARS.)

I do find all the overreaction, gloom-and-doom-because-Chiefs-Andy-Reid-is-stupid-fire-them-all bitching tiresome. But, you know, because internet forum.

But for my part, I may have been a little harsh from time to time. So, my apologies.

Back to the regular scheduled program.

YUP.

When your defense is made from poorly coached underachievers, duct tape, and slow-assed Hobos, it doesn't matter how slow or fast you score.

There is no such thing as scoring too fast. To say you scored "too fast" is to make an assumption you will score at all. A fumble, drop, interception, tipped pass, hold, false start, illegal formation, miscommunication on route, bad pass, missed block, bad snap, sack and many other things seem to always disappear as a probability when people say "we scored too fast".

It's the most idiotic statement in sports.

Yeah the score to fast thing never made sense to me

And then what happens when you try and kill clock.....but you don’t end up scoring?

If you can score, you score.

You pay a defense for a reason.

**** you all. Andy Reid is a terrible head coach. Just disregard the fact that he's groomed one of the best young QBs in NFL history, or the fact that he's actually the 2nd best coach in Chiefs history and will take the 1st spot when we win a Superbowl with Mahomes.

Right or wrong....Andy’s legacy is riding on this hire.

I agree. This was the most important coaching hire of his career.

Not sure why this concept is so difficult to grasp. We did the same thing when we played NE in the regular season.

And something that has not been discussed enough was Reid calling that first half TO with Brady having a 3rd and 4. We lost at least 4 points and very likely 7. They seemed content amazingly enough to go into the half up 7-0.

Well...probably. Not necessarily.

Our window could be open for 15 years or more.

If Spagnuolo fails to field a respectable defense and Reid moves on quickly, then that next DC hire will be more important as his time in coaching will be nearing the end.

He just can't let it linger for 6 years or something if it's not working. He'll need to move on quickly.

But I think it's going to be fine, and Spags will do a decent job, and we're going to win a SB or two in the next few years.

But if things don't work out with Spagnuolo, he'll probably get another chance with yet another DC.

Or what Meck said

Given Belicheck and Brady obviously having their way with Sutton's defense, it is definitely not certain KC would have made a stop..

However, Reid's timeout on that drive was probably the worst tactical decision he made in 2018 since it stopped the clock and gave the Pats almost 60 extra seconds to work with.