Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043335)

Because those second and third round OTs have given us so much to be excited and optimistic about the past few years. LMAO

How is this board seemingly so unaware of how hard it is to find long term solutions at this position?

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 18043282)

I think that's the issue.

I won't speak for Duncan here, but he said that riiiiiiight around the time the "He's squatting 225 lbs" thing came out.

Which, for me, says they CAN'T know that. They can't see that. Because you can't until that ligament really gets taxed and really starts to carry a legitimate load. When it's starting to really have to drive. Or cut WHILE under load.

I - not Duncan or Crow or Burkholder or anyone else - cannot see how that question can POSSIBLY be answered when he's squatting about half what you'd expect from a high level college offensive lineman. That means it just way too early.

And Duncan can actually attest to this -- I disagreed with HIM in PMs about exactly how much risk Simmons carries. I'm absolutely willing to listen to someone explain how they can possibly have this level of insight when it comes to a dexterity and blood flow issue in a replaced ligament. When, by his own admission, Simmons isn't able to actually tax that ligament.

Can he do it under lighter load by higher reps? Shit, can he get on a recumbent bike, turn the tension up and put in 5 miles to provide some rough rough approximation of what load would be and then examine it?

Find me THAT. But I think a prima facia case here has absolutely been made to put the ball back in the other court. There's a LOT of evidence out there that this isn't a surgery that guys come back from with any regularity at all. So please, do explain to me why Simmons will be the exception to that.

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043335)

Because those second and third round OTs have given us so much to be excited and optimistic about the past few years. LMAO

How is this board seemingly so unaware of how hard it is to find long term solutions at this position?

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043335)

Because those second and third round OTs have given us so much to be excited and optimistic about the past few years. LMAO

How is this board seemingly so unaware of how hard it is to find long term solutions at this position?

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043339)

While we’re bitching about the possibility of Simmons merely being a depth piece at the second most important position on the roster his rookie year, what exactly did all the Luther Burden stans think his rookie year in KC would look like?

Cause I’ll spoil that one. Not a whole lot of action. Was never unseating the top three WRs as a rookie.

Originally Posted by wazu (Post 18043341)

One note on squatting 225 pounds. That's a lot of weight, even if it is only half of what he would be at full strength. Like that might be my max if I am at full strength and working out regularly. It doesn't seem impossible to me that they could evaluate how the tendon is doing under load with that weight on it.

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043339)

While we’re bitching about the possibility of Simmons merely being a depth piece at the second most important position on the roster his rookie year, what exactly did all the Luther Burden stans think his rookie year in KC would look like?

Cause I’ll spoil that one. Not a whole lot of action. Was never unseating the top three WRs as a rookie.

Great teams without holes don’t usually end up drafting day one starters.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043318)

Knee and back injuries to big guys are worse. Much worse. They carry more weight and absorb more punishment.

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 18043342)

But the guys drafting all those 2nd and 3rd rounders sure know how to do it if they get one in the back of the first?

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 18043343)

How can this poster be so clear on the difficulty of finding a LT and simultaneously so certain that Simmons is the answer?

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043302)

I didn't know that. So you know pretty early if knee surgeries are a success or not? That is good news.

I know my buddy had an acl and mcl (I think) one after the other and said both were painful as hell and a bitch to rehab. You have to deal with the pain or it won't heal right. Do all the rehab or it won't heal right. Do all the stretching or it won't heal right.

Then you have an elevated risk of a different injury due to the tendency to over compensate and use other joints and limbs too much.

Right or wrong we basically agreed to all this risk to save 20 draft slots. That's what it comes down to. We didn't want to pay the price to move up into the top 15 to get a top 15 talent.

Originally Posted by wazu (Post 18043347)

Hold on with that. I would be completely fine with Simmons not playing at all this year. Is anybody actually bitching about what he'll do as a rookie? I think the concern of all is that his ceiling for the rest of his life is low, even if technically he is playing and "healthy".

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043339)

While we’re bitching about the possibility of Simmons merely being a depth piece at the second most important position on the roster his rookie year, what exactly did all the Luther Burden stans think his rookie year in KC would look like?

Cause I’ll spoil that one. Not a whole lot of action. Was never unseating the top three WRs as a rookie.

Great teams without holes don’t usually end up drafting day one starters.

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043354)

O.City just indicated that he didn’t like taking a depth piece at 32. That’s what I was responding to.

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 18043348)

Correct. My arthritis in my back could have told you that. :)

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043349)

I have eyes. His skill far supersedes what Morris and Kingsley do physically.

It’s just not that difficult. The guys who do this for a living are telling you the same thing.

Again, I don’t give a single **** if this doesn’t work out. I’m tired of watching Mahomes play down to his potential because his LT stinks. This guy is our best shot to fix that for the rest of his career.

If you’re different and think 32 just had to be a Pro Bowler lock, which doesn’t exist and certainly didn’t with this board, that’s your prerogative.

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 18043228)

It seems more like the Comerica Park center field, to me...

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043349)

I have eyes. His skill far supersedes what Morris and Kingsley do physically.

It’s just not that difficult. The guys who do this for a living are telling you the same thing.

Again, I don’t give a single **** if this doesn’t work out. I’m tired of watching Mahomes play down to his potential because his LT stinks. This guy is our best shot to fix that for the rest of his career.

If you’re different and think 32 just had to be a Pro Bowler lock, which doesn’t exist and certainly didn’t with this board, that’s your prerogative.

Originally Posted by wazu (Post 18043356)

Gotcha. Yeah, if this were an ACL or something where we just knew we wouldn't have him year 1 this pick would already be in "home run" category for me. Basically my Chiefs draft dream come true.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 18043368)

"I have eyes"

{immediately appeals to authority}

Okay.

Originally Posted by RealSNR (Post 18043355)

"First round picks have to start year one!" has always been a crock of shit to me. But that's just me.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043369)

Exactly. ACL tears are almost common at this point when they ended you in the 90's.

There hasn't been dramatic progress in this injury. It's still rare and not many good outcomes.
And I'm not against risk. If you'd told me before this draft that Veach was trading up into the top 10 to grab his LTOTF I'd say "He knows what he's doing. Take your shot."

That isn't what we did. We took a big gamble because we didn't want to trade up. We hoped to get lucky like we hoped to get lucky with Kingsly and all our other long shot LT picks.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043371)

I literally am the authority you trust.

I am evidence of why you shouldn't trust it.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043331)

That's not entirely accurate. As I understood it he plays in an odd blocking scheme that doesn't directly translate to many NFL teams and he's going to need polish and technique.

The fact that he is a freak athlete and good mover is why he shouldn't have a steep learning curve.

Originally Posted by Wisconsin_Chief (Post 18043336)

Not even just that, but the complete and total lack of depth. You're one snap away from Morris being in again, which simply cannot happen. He's a backup RT at best, he can never see the left side again.

Now, you have true competition for Taylor when he knows his ass is going to be cut next year. He needs to put some better tape out there if he wants to land another deal. So, he either steps up or Moore takes his job. Either way, you now have three starting caliber tackles when you ended last season with barely even one in Taylor.

The more time that passes, it's obvious this was the one and only choice, and I bet the Chiefs are freaking thrilled. There will be plenty of RBs, DL and WRs who can contribute day one in rounds 2-3, the same cannot be said for OTs.

It wasn't just the right pick, it was the only pick.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 18043368)

"I have eyes"

{immediately appeals to authority}

Okay.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 18043373)

So either Simmons isn't a blue chip talent or this AINT an injury to be hand-waived.

Originally Posted by Nirvana58 (Post 18043375)

Will just throw this out there.

Roaf was ****ing amazing for us and dude could barely walk.

Rub some dirt on that knee and get out there and protect the GOAT.

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2 (Post 18043387)

Isn’t this somewhat similar to Nolan Smith falling to the end of the first? Blue chip talent falling down the draft board because of injury? Maybe teams think Simmons will miss some time this year and didn’t draft him in large part for that reason.

Originally Posted by wazu (Post 18043341)

One note on squatting 225 pounds. That's a lot of weight, even if it is only half of what he would be at full strength. Like that might be my max if I am at full strength and working out regularly. It doesn't seem impossible to me that they could evaluate how the tendon is doing under load with that weight on it.

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043339)

While we’re bitching about the possibility of Simmons merely being a depth piece at the second most important position on the roster his rookie year, what exactly did all the Luther Burden stans think his rookie year in KC would look like?

Cause I’ll spoil that one. Not a whole lot of action. Was never unseating the top three WRs as a rookie.

Great teams without holes don’t usually end up drafting day one starters.

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2 (Post 18043387)

Isn’t this somewhat similar to Nolan Smith falling to the end of the first? Blue chip talent falling down the draft board because of injury? Maybe teams think Simmons will miss some time this year and didn’t draft him in large part for that reason.

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 18043397)

The top 3 WRs also has a guy that will be hurt at some point so there’s some layering needed there

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 18043397)

The top 3 WRs also has a guy that will be hurt at some point so there’s some layering needed there

Originally Posted by RealSNR (Post 18043355)

"First round picks have to start year one!" has always been a crock of shit to me. But that's just me.

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic (Post 18043383)

Blocking scheme is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic (Post 18043383)

He is Pro Ready now.

Originally Posted by Kiimo (Post 18043388)

11%?



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Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043400)

I can win a Super Bowl with Rice, Worthy, and whoever else at WR3.

I can’t do that with Wanya Morris at LT.

Originally Posted by TwistedChief (Post 18043404)

In fairness, you just made up these 11% odds.

Originally Posted by TwistedChief (Post 18043404)

In fairness, you just made up these 11% odds.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 18043405)

And yet we managed with Donovan Smith and have no reason at all to believe we can't get at least that from Moore.

For $15 million/season, I sure as shit hope that's the expectation.

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 18043391)

It really is not, man. Not for an NFL offensive lineman, defensive lineman, lifebacker, or any NFL player, really. It might be a lot for really skinny WRs or CBs, but even then probably not.

I mean, I can squat 225 one-legged, and I'm a 42-year-old, non-professional athlete who is 6-1/225 pounds. I did six reps on each leg at the gym yesterday (it's hard because my 11" dong gets in the way, but for real, I can do this and it is not a great sign for an NFL dude).



The separation between Burden and Simmons for me is definitely not about year 1 contribution (though WR4 in the Chiefs' offense would get a lot of snaps, especially if Rice gets suspended/isn't ready at the start of the year, Brown gets hurt again, Worthy gets hurt).

It's about the risks involved. Burden has great physical traits and needs to be coached to be a little more efficient and refined in his routes, and give better effort. He is otherwise a clean bill of health.

Give me that over a dude with a knee that's a major, major risk and question mark, any day of the week.
Ok
If LT is the second-most important position in the NFL, most would argue that WR is the next-most-important on offense. It's certainly the next-most expensive to fill off of rookie contracts. Probably behind pass rusher in importance, but not by much.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 18043407)

True.

Based on available data, they aren't THAT good.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043406)

In fairness the odds are much smaller than that. He's being generous.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043358)

And you don't collide all day with men as big or bigger than you at NFL speeds.

Originally Posted by Rain Man (Post 18043418)

Do we know that for sure?

Originally Posted by kcfan75 (Post 18043416)

Didn't the article say he was "cleared" to squat 225 lbs, not that his current max is 225 lbs. His good leg is probably stronger than three cp'er combined.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 18043405)

And yet we managed with Donovan Smith and have no reason at all to believe we can't get at least that from Moore.

For $15 million/season, I sure as shit hope that's the expectation.

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 18043408)

I’d be curious to see the 22/23/24 splits in regards to the LT spot.

Apparently the 24 Lt spot was so much worse than the other 2 years it debilitated our qbs ability

Originally Posted by JohnnyV13 (Post 18043410)

Wow Duncan,

I'm impressed you're straight up about having a mere 11 inch dong. Dont let anyone make you feel inadequate here. I mean, you stil!.have a tongue, right? Keep.practicing on those inflatable.dolls!!!!

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 18043427)

‘23 offense was down because of Tackle play a lot more than people ever gave credit for. Everyone made it about WRs — but it wasn’t just that.

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 18043421)

The tweet I saw referenced that he was "Already squatting 225 pounds"

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 18043433)

I find it interesting that nobody in sports media is making the arguments a good portion of CP is.

Granted I generally despise most sports media so I’m at a crossroads here.

Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 18043437)

This pick absolutely Carrie’s a ton of risk. He could go down this season and not return for a year, two or never.

Good thing these fools hedged their bet before making it.

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho (Post 18043421)

The tweet I saw referenced that he was "Already squatting 225 pounds"

Originally Posted by Kiimo (Post 18043388)

Look, these arguments are dumb. Comparing injuries is dumb. Saying things in this thread like "well it worked out for Trey Smith" when he had blood clots is dumb.

Roaf "can hardly walk" okay? What's the point of saying that? Did he have a torn patellar? Because if not, it's completely useless and a waste of time to post it.



I don't like risk. If he rolls the dice and beats the 11% odds or whatever it's an unreal and complete FIX to our left tackle issue. But even if it works out it doesn't make the bet smart.



That said, I'm not really sure how ELSE we fix the position. You don't get this talent in free agency and you don't get it drafting at 32. It's a gamble that could fix the team for a decade. OR we just turned our first into a 5th.

11%?



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Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043247)

I think a sizeable number of us are looking at Taylor going as a good thing.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043440)

Did we?

If we'd have overpayed for the Raven's tackle or traded for Tunsil I'd care less because there'd be a dependable fall back plan. I don't feel like a career back up is a dependable fall back plan.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043440)

Did we?

If we'd have overpayed for the Raven's tackle or traded for Tunsil I'd care less because there'd be a dependable fall back plan. I don't feel like a career back up is a dependable fall back plan.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 18043438)

The entire NFL, other than KC, made the point he wasn't worth taking in the 1st.

We're the outliers here. KC is hoping he beats incredibly long odds.

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 18043448)

The entire NFL didn’t need a starting LT.

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 18043448)

The entire NFL didn’t need a starting LT.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 18043443)

I don’t love or hate Taylor. But yeah if you can replace him with someone better, it’s a large expense we don’t have to pay. We will need him no matter what this year but next year is a perfect time to start reconsidering.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 18043455)

Nor did we, based on the investment we made in Moore.

And every team in the NFL could use a pro bowl caliber OT with experience on both sides of the line who presents a long-term solution to a difficult position to fill.

Lack of 'need' doesn't explain the slide. Scheme fit, or lack thereof, doesn't explain it.

It's talent, injury or a combination of both.

So either we put more stock in the talent than most or less stock in the injury.

We ARE the outliers.

Originally Posted by kcfan75 (Post 18043449)

Or had a higher pick and got one.

We took the best available LT at the spot we were in.

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 18043448)

So if he was taken 5 picks later you would have been fine?

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 18043458)

We signed a guy with 7 career starts at LT and that’s a bough to put it in the books eh?

Seems to me Veach wants to make sure what happened the last 2 years doesn’t happen again.

Too many eggs in 1 basket has backfired.