Other than to Tyreek Hill, Mahomes/Reid don't like to throw jump balls. Blake Bell is 6'6" and how many times can you think of Mahomes throwing a jump ball to him in the endzone? Reid can scheme up pretty much anything, yet he can't find a way to have Bell go against a 6' safety or LB?

This is where I am as well.

It’s not just about being big to win jump balls. It’s body control and coordination and tracking the ball and leaping ability, too.

I don’t think Bell has anything other than the size.

Travis Kelce has that, no?

And I can kinda count on 2 hands the balls like that he's gotten.

No, he doesn't.

Kelce doesn't have body control and coordination and leaping ability? Tracking the football?

Not anything close to Rice in that department.

It's like taking a guy that is fast for TE and saying he has DJax and Tyreek speed. Sure, compared to other TEs, I guess you can say he "has that", but no he actually doesn't have what Rice has.

He actually threw a few to Gray, of all people, last season. And he absolutely attempted a couple to MVS, but (as I said at the time) the guy just doesn't have the body control to bring those in. Never has and it was silly for people to slam him for not being able to do so. It's just not a club in his bag.

Rice can. Because body control, like speed, is innate. Either you have it or you don't. Rice has it in spades.

I think the Chiefs would like to have that ability in their arsenal. As you noted, Mahomes DID throw them to Hill and frankly Hill is the only guy we've had since maybe Bowe with that kind of body control. Even Maclin didn't have it; it was essentially a better version of MVS - very graceful and fluid in his cuts and in creating separation, but not a guy who was going to turn, leap, locate and rotate to a ball in one motion.

Even Bowe's body control wasn't that type - it was more physical in nature.

But Rice brings something we haven't had since Hill and when we had it, we put it to use.

Not at a WR level, no.

He has spectacular body control for a TE, but he's an example similar to what I just mentioned - more like Bowe. He has great size/strength and could use that very well. But he's not a leaper.

And frankly, I feel like you're underselling the number of times he HAS gone up for a ball.

But ultimately he just works in different areas of the field. He works the seams and zones over the middle. He's just not someone who needs to get those kind of balls that often.

But ultimately no - Kelce's remarkable because of his fluidity as a TE and how much agility he has at a size that makes it damn near impossible to cover him with a CB. But if you put him in a tier with WRs and grade his raw athleticism, we're talking B-/C+ at best.

Kelce wins by being big, durable, tough and DAMN smart.

Yeah, I'm gonna disagree with you guys on this. We've seen him line up outside and do it. It's just not something they ask him to do, nor have they really ever asked guys to do it here. With Kelce's size, paired with what he possesses athletically, it would make sense to do it with him alot more if it were something they valued.

Maybe it's because they haven't had anyone who could, but they also haven't gone out of their way to get someone that does it.

You're free to be reeruned...

He lines up outside and does it against safeties.

Remember, the DC doesn't know where he's going to line up when he puts his sub package out there. He's not sending NCBs out there to man up on Kelce every time just in case he splits out wide.

I mean just look at the traits. He's probably not even a 4.8 guy anymore. The leaping ability is...nominal at best.

Just watch the guy and tell me he's winning through innate athleticism. He just isn't. I've mentioned this before but the times he's left guys grasping at air are because he's using his feet/hips to make his next move before he's even caught the ball. It's really amazing shit.

Rice has plus size, is very physical and has elite 10 and 20 yard splits.

He gets to 4th gear quickly and then just doesn't have a 5th gear. That's pretty much EXACTLY how Michael Thomas succeeded.

That's exactly the role JJSS played last year.

It is also why he has the best dance moves. He uses those skills similarly on the field to get wide open when it seems like it is busted coverage.

True

But he did have that at one time and we still didn't really utilize it.

How did the Chiefs beat the Bills in overtime in the 2021 playoffs again?

Was it a back-shoulder throw to Kelce?

It's hard to throw back shoulder jump balls to a guy who is bracketed/double-teamed.

He hasn't really had it since Alex Smith.

These are different times...

How would you evaluate it in comparison to Toney? I do remember not long after we signed Toney he made a catch after stopping, fixing his gloves, and then going up and snatching the ball. Just trying to see where Rice stands using Toney as a comparison.

Similar in terms of pure body control, but Toney is more explosive so I think he can put it to a little better use.

Where Rice can potentially close that gap up, though, is through physicality. There are plays Rice goes up and contorts to get a ball that, frankly, I'd just as soon see Toney not attempt. He just isn't built in a way that allows him to take those kinds of hits.

I think Toney's best use of that skill is on the sideline where he can use the boundary to protect himself. Whereas Rice's best use will be in between the hashes where he can use the open field to create room to work and throwing lanes then use his body/strength to get the ball.

But you make a good comparison in that it just demonstrates another area where this WR group is becoming EXTREMELY complementary. So many traits that dovetail nicely together.

I don't see that Rice's is quite as quick-twitch. He's more smooth and has more size.

It is uncanny just how much I see Brandon Aiyuk in this kids game. I’m not sure he’s going to be as good as Aiyuk but the similarities just pop off the screen to me.

His size is the same, his ball ability in the air seems similar and his versatility with YAC is very similar too.

Juju’s best feature last year was breaking tackles and having spurts of YAC where guys just got tired trying to tackle the guy in the 2nd half.

Rice is a lot more explosive than Juju was. Man if Rice is even 75% of what Auyik is then we are in business.

Yup - that's the target.

And I just don't see anything at all from a physical standpoint that should keep him from hitting it. Moreover, from what we've heard about his time at SMU (the work ethic, toughness and versatility) I don't see what would hold him back from it developmentally.

I think he's gonna be awfully good.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Interesting part of Rashee Rice&#39;s game is how many penalties he forces to be called.<br><br>The toe injury made his explosion off the LoS inconsistent but on reps it&#39;s there, he mixes up his releases &amp; fires off. Once on top, he stacks DBs &amp; forces the flag if a CB tries to fight thru <a href="https://t.co/VgKwCGYrJ1">pic.twitter.com/VgKwCGYrJ1</a></p>&mdash; Matt Lane (@Matty_KCSN) <a href="https://twitter.com/Matty_KCSN/status/1653506991338209286?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 2, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Man I would take that comp 100 times over and he does seem similar from what I see. Much better to hear the positivity over listening to Petro crap all over the draft 4 hours a day to try and drum up listeners.

When has Mahomes had a receiver with the size, body control and leaping ability of this guy?

I don't think it's fair to say they're bad at evaluating WRs. They just rarely invest a high pick in one. They found one of the greatest WRs of all time in the 5th round. Jury's out on Moore. We all know that rookies don't tend to make a huge impact in Reid's offense.

By your logic, Mahomes could have Hopkins on the roster and he wouldn't throw jump balls to him. Laughable.

Me and DJ discussed this, but even a team like the Steelers, who I'm sure most would agree do a good job in terms of drafting WRs, have had to take a lot of shots to get their big hits.

If Aiyuk had 1,000 yd season with Lance and Mr. Irrelevant throwing to him, I would expect even better numbers within a year or so...why would you crap on that?

Yup - the amount of capital the Steelers have plowed into WRs over the Reid era has more than doubled what KC has, especially when you start to factor in the 'draft value chart' figures.

Gotta pay to play. And just like the LB position, if/when the Chiefs start to target the area, they'll start to get results. It won't be a 100% hit rate, but if they just keep taking swings, it won't have to be.

I'd be fine taking a 2nd round WR every single year. Maybe some years a 1st, some years a 3rd, but if you put roughly 2nd round draft capital into your WR room on an annual basis, you're gonna to have a strong, deep WR corps that is more than enough for Mahomes to work with.

The position just isn't as unstable or unpredictable in the draft as some others are. It's pretty projectable, especially if you have a smart HC and capable QB...

I'd honestly probably take one a year at some point in the draft. The value of hitting is just too great to ignore. WR, DE and CB over and over again until you're getting them, and then going again to restock

Eh - Petro is just taking his orders from up top.

Once KK got 810 cut off at the knees, the only chance they had at relevance was counter-programming. They need to wear the black hat because lord knows they won't be getting back in the franchise's good graces while Reid is here.

I'd take one in the first 3 rounds bascially every year.

We're taking the 2024 version of Hyatt in the draft next season and probably in the 2nd round.

And I wouldn't be surprised to see us double up on the position as we have on the DL and Secondary at some point in the next year or two as well.

So I'm gonna call a shot here - Jalen McMillan out of Washington as a guy we trade up in the 2nd for. I think he'll eventually work his way into a lot of top 50 prospects lists.

Checks a lot of boxes. He's tall and has elite deep speed. He's been productive but he's the #2 WR on his team (Romeo Odunze is the #1) so he'll stay a little under the radar and it will keep him out of the 1st.

Imma say that he's our guy if he has the kind of platform season I expect him to have. The only thing that makes me question it is location - we really gonna take a WR from the Northwest? Then again, More was out of Western Michigan so their Southern Bias may not extend to WRs...

He was mad because we traded up and lost picks and he’s all about accumulating picks so his thoughts are the picks are not worth it due to the trading of picks. He’s just doing his usual stick of getting on something and hammering it over and over:

Yep said the same elsewhere, gonna be elite speed next year

When the price for elite WR went up I could see teams going with the WRBC approach we just happen to have a Coach and QB that can make it work.

Trade the entire draft for #1 pick and draft Marvin Harrison jr next yr.

I would be perfectly fine with this. Id give up our next three rd 1 picks honestly


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I don't necessarily disagree, in that picks are insanely valuable. However, they're only valuable if you have good people making the picks/decisions. In our case, we have one of the best, which leads me to also trust him in trading those valuable assets.

The Chiefs are listing Rashee Rice at 6'2" when he is only 6'.5" tall. Like, why?

They’re using metric inches.

To give you some more to bitch about.

I wasn't bitching, but everyone knows how tall he is from the combine. It just seems silly to not be honest about it on their official roster page.

Also, AGAIN, I LIKE RICE AS A PLAYER, but moving up made no sense.

And Seth Keysor also said on the radio that he also didn't like or understand the move up, because he thought we could have gotten Rice if we stayed put.

Seth Keysor is no draft analyst - he admittedly hadn't watched even a second of tape on FAU before the Chiefs drafted him. His opinion of who would or would not be available is as valuable as yours (which is to say: not very valuable).

I'm willing to bet that the Chiefs know more than you and Keysor combined about who wants who and where a guy could possibly be taken. IDC what some analyst says, because most of them have literally 0 clue.

I definitely see a little Dwayne Bowe in his style…both good and bad

Are you routinely interviewed on sports radio in regards to the Chiefs? Never? I guess your opinion is as good as mine, which is to say not very valuable at all.

It is sad that people on this board feel like they need to tear down other posters to make themselves feel like they are better, or know more.

I do my best to not call people stupid for their opinions, and I do not attack people because they disagree with my opinion. However, that is the default setting for most of the gatekeepers on CP.

Paid analysts have no clue, but you, a random internet poster on a sports bulletin board, have a clue. Got it.

That's not at all what he ****ing said :facepalm:

Amazing that you think "paid analyst" means you know who's going where, but not you know actually being a ****ing NFL team and GM.

I said your opinion isn’t very valuable with respect to who would be available at which position. Nor is Seth Keysor’s.

And yes, I know Seth. He’s in my phone. I’ve watched a Chiefs playoff game with him and his dad at Arrowhead.

It’s not a knock on someone to proclaim that he’s not a draft expert. In fact for most it might even be a mark of pride.

No one on this board knows any inside baseball as to where players are going to be picked, or what teams value, etc. However, some people on this board attack anyone who doesn't agree with them, many using statements like "So you know more than Brett Veach....."

It is ok that you don't agree with me about moving up for Rice. I never called you stupid, or accused you of thinking you knew more than Brett Veach.

But, there are some people on this board who default to attacking a person when that person doesn't agree with them, and I bet you know exactly who these people are.

Bottom line:

If veach and the staff knew they wanted rice out of the “second teir” group of receivers, then i fully trust their decision to move up and get their guy.

They have a way better feel for the board than fans and media people,and im sure get plenty of information fed to them from players agents in the draft process.

Im psyched to see what rice can do in this offense.

This shows a pretty impressive level of arrogance. To believe that you know what every other teams draft boards looked like, and then to go out of your way to make it sound like you have some kind of superior insight as to what each team would have done had things fallen differently. That's not something that most people are willing to commit to. I am truly impressed.

"No one on this board knows"

But also "moving up made no sense".

Wearing #4. Man, still not quite used to the number change rule. Has anyone got 0 on the Chiefs?

They don't move up if Rice isn't the last guy in the tier of WRs they like.

That means ahead of Hyatt, Mims, Tillman, Downs or anyone else on their board.

Maybe he'd have been there - but they liked him enough that they weren't willing to risk it. Shouldn't that tell you SOMETHING about their board. And if their board said that, all it takes is one other team to have a similarly situated board to blow your entire premise all to hell.

And the Chiefs were never using all of those picks. I'd prefer they get their guys as opposed to holding onto more picks than they needed.

Eh - I'd have preferred they keep the 4 and get another DT.

But it's the price they had to pay and that's fine if they got the guy they wanted.

Have you ever hated a draft pick, or wanted a player other than who we drafted?

I agree re the 4th, that was my personal preference, or frankly a TE, RB etc. Not like there isn't gaps to fill or spots to improve.

But re moving up, is it not possible they moved up because he was one of a couple of guys left and they thought there might be a mini-run before them. 8 picks, easy to see a couple of going between 55 and 63, though they didn't.

Veach addressed the move ups.

Stated yes, normally good to have numbers drafting but at the end of the day, the staff spent all this time setting up the board and they acted on what their board told them.

They could be wrong but why spend time creating a board yourself if you aren't going to act on it?

Honestly? No, I've never hated a pick in May. Because while I enjoy looking at boards and videos and trying to guess who we'll take, I don't assume I'm smarter than the real GM.

I have guys that are my favorites every year, but I don't expect they will be our pick.

Because, again, I don't assume I'm as good as judging NFL talent beforehand as Brett Veach.

Clyde was a headscratcher, because I don't generally think running back is a position worth a first round pick, but I got behind the pick after the fact because I want my favorite team to succeed.

*****The Rashee Rice Thread*****
 

Hated a pick, no.

Wanted another player, Yes

DK over Hardman
Higgins over Clyde
Pickens over skyy
****, even this year i wanted Mayer at 31.

Its not about what players i want. Theres a ton more that goes into this then just picking players that I like. the front office should get the benefit of the doubt, especially after a success rate like the last two years.

If you don't like a pick at the time, but sit on it to wait and see, and they turn out like CEH, it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to now say "Yeah, I think I was right on that one". You can take a victory lap on CEH and I'm not gonna think "this guy reckons he knows more than Veach and co" - you just got one right and they got one wrong, for whatever reason.

For me, there have been plenty of picks that seemed underwhelming at the time, but over the past few years, I’ve given them the benefit of the doubt. I think that’s been earned. Honestly, since Veach’s first draft (which basically sucked), I think almost all their picks have ranged from decent to good, outside of a few guys who were known to be developmental projects or late 7th rounders, etc. If you want to say the CEH pick was bad, I don’t necessarily disagree, but not because he’s a terrible player. Just a reach.

When you're mocking a draft for the Chiefs and how they have to operate under the cap constraints you have to take that into consideration. I didn't have specific players in mind, but my thought process was T, DE, or WR simply because those are premium paid positions these days. Keeping those positions stocked on rookie deals will help offset the cap greatly if you hit.

I thought the same, and did The Chiefs, apparently.

I held out hope for Clyde longer than most, but I think the injuries just sapped him of any plus potential.

Especially since “analysts” like Kiper have admitted that some of the “pay” in “paid analyst” is making shit up to influence a player’s draft stock.

Maybe - but they moved down last year w/ the Moore pick and risked a mini run.

And again, I just don't how anyone can be wholly confident Rice would've fallen to the back of the 2nd. I was among the folks entering this draft saying that I thought we should pass on WR in the first and move up in the 2nd to grab him. I thought 48-53 would be the sweet spot for him. He went almost exactly where I thought he would go.

The only surprise was that he went ahead of Hyatt but he also went behind Mingo, so he even 'ranked' among the WRs about where I expected him to.

This isn't some out of left field pick (as Conner was). This was always Rice's range, IMO. And while a perfect world has him falling to 63, Veach didn't want to risk it despite there being at least 3 other receivers on the board that were considered in the same tier as him by many. The odds of all 4 being gone in the next 7 picks were very remote given the depth at the position AND the depth still on the board elsewhere in the draft.

Veach wanted the guy more than everyone else (obviously) and in the end he went where I thought he would.

When we had not just one, but THREE different guys openly admit that they wanted to force a square peg into a round hole to 'start a discussion' on a guy, I just don't know how you can take anything they say as gospel.

This was a year the curtain was pulled back BIGGLY on these ****ing 'draft gurus'. They may know more than we do (they may not) but whatever it is they say is influenced by who they are attempting to curry favor with.

Chris, no offense intended, but as per "not being smarter than a GM", you apparently were not around during King Carl's reign. You are CLEARLY smarter than him!

And let's not forget about Mr Pioli either.

I think this tells us something about how they viewed Rice vs. how they viewed Moore.

They actively wanted Rice (and clearly viewed him a step above Tillman, or they probably would have been more willing to roll the dice and not trade up).

With Moore, they could have taken him at 50 but chose to move down 4 spots and be happy with him or one of a few more dudes in that range (Pickens, Pierce).

Draft gurus seldom do their own work. It seems half of these profiles were created by 2-3 guys and then the rest of the industry parrots them.

Brugler at least does his own stuff as does Waldman. I suspect a lot of the ESPN and nfl.com rankings are talking heads asking others and that's why the furious moving up and down the boards on guys just before the draft.

The furious moving up and down stems a lot from these "gurus" selectively hyping certain name players to get them more exposure. It's all about PR and money for them.

I think Rice comes in on day one and is our best receiver at playing through contact - before, during, and after the catch. He has rare ability playing against physical DBs.

He might also be our best blocking receiver on day one.

He's good after the catch but Toney might be one of the best in the league at YAC.

I think with teams playing softer coverage against us, this is a great pick. He helps us right away blocking screens and sweeps, and can win underneath and after the catch. Not to mention I think he'll be great in the red zone.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I think Patrick Mahomes will enjoy throwing to Rashee Rice but that’s just me <a href="https://t.co/A9rciEL4oG">pic.twitter.com/A9rciEL4oG</a></p>&mdash; Sully Engels (@sullyengels) <a href="https://twitter.com/sullyengels/status/1652113096633090049?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 29, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Remember the 2017 draft and the media was claiming Mahomes was MOVING UP the boards?

He never moved anywhere. Dinosaur teams didn't like him because he wasn't PRO STYLE!! and the teams who understood what he was were always going to take him high in the draft. KC mentioned they liked him for years.

All that happened was the industry draft talk guys realized their assessments were too low.

This is why I keep saying that he's something between what Watkins was and what he could've been.

We can use him REALLY similarly to how we used Watkins once he gets up to speed. And rookie or no, the system is the same to learn for rookies as it is for FA signings. If Watkins can pick it up quickly enough to be used in that capacity, so could Rice.

He's just gotta go do it...